10 ms·

Show HN: Visualization tools for bicycle wheelbuilding

124 points by StayTrue 5y ago

Long time reader, first time self-promoter. I'm a bicycle mechanic that figured I could make the process of bicycle wheelbuilding faster, more accurate and more satisfying. I do it by sampling digital indicators, rendering the data in useful ways, and injecting domain-specific insights. The UI interaction happens by foot pedal so my paradigm retains the traditional way of working with your hands.

adam0c 5y ago
i think I'll still with the sheldon method, built countless amounts of wheels and never needed or thought i needed to add unnecessary tech to what is such a simple job
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
pealco 5y ago
In the video, you keep saying "Turing" (turr-ing), when I think you mean to say "truing" (troo-ing).
- stbtrax 5y ago
  He's saying it properly and isn't even remotely strange in my mind. Are you from the midwest? You might be used to the midwest accent's vowel lengthening
  - StayTrue 5y ago
    It's possible I have a Canadian accent. But now that I think about it, Turing Stand is a name with great potential. ;-)
    - pealco 5y ago
      I was so confused :) "Is the stand doing computations??"
azibi 5y ago
Would be nice if spoke tension is also measured and recorded. Spoke tension is a very important factor building robust wheels.
- StayTrue 5y ago
  That's one of the features. Live Tensio, one visualization in Wheel Analytics, shows live tension as you introduce your tensiometer to the wheel. A live reading can be recorded by pressing the foot pedal. Tension distribution is then presented in bar graph form along with min/max/avg. A printable version can be generated for record keeping or sharing with customers for marketing purposes. You are 100% right that tension is a critical wheel dimension.
  - azibi 5y ago
    Ah, I see now. Only saw first intro movie. Interesting tool, although I`m not a wheel builder. Its a real craftsmanship ;)
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Strum the spokes and listen. That's a very easy way to get your spokes within a very small margin of error tensioned accurately.
  - jimnotgym 5y ago
    It is a way to get them consistent very easily, but getting them to an optimum tension is hard to define.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      The optimum is very much dependent on the materials used (steel wheel, aluminum wheel, single or multiple layers, the kind of spoke nipple used, the spoke thickness, the number of spokes, the shape of the spokes, the length of the spoke and so on). If you don't know exactly what you are doing I would stay away from the optimum and simply play it safe, it doesn't really pay to find that you over estimated one or more of the parts. Overtensioning is much more dangerous than undertensioning, what is far more important is that you tension the spokes evenly, and if you have asymmetric spokes (for instance: most rear wheels) that you tighten the shorter side a little bit more. Consistency is key.
blakesterz 5y ago
It's been years since I built a wheel, but this seems useful for just truing up a wheel after it gets beat up. Very cool, I would've loved to have this setup when I worked in a shop.
pixelbreaker 5y ago
The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt is all I ever needed. I've built hundreds of wheels, I don't feel I need this tool. I guess if you're being really anal about it it's of value. I've used a spoke tensioner once ever, just a stand and a good feel for tension is fine. I've ridden over 60000km on my wheels, no problems.
- idontknowifican 5y ago
  we both know that there are many types of cyclists. you’re clearly one of the 95% rider 5% equipment camp, but i don’t fully agree with you wrt racing. in racing (cat 6 all the way to cat 1) these sorts if things can provide the .5% boost needed. i guess this is more of a comment on the sort of people who would take the time to let us know how little they need help because they are so talented, when all it does is show how little they can understand others needs
  - analog31 5y ago
    I build my own wheels too. There's another reason for these kinds of comments, which is that a lot of cyclists have been persuaded that wheelbuilding (and other kinds of bike work) is a deep philosophical mystery requiring decades of experience and a shop full of specialized tooling. Yet people have maintained their own bikes satisfactorily with basic tools for more than a century. This happens in any technical discipline -- two people will disagree diametrically on the amount of gear and technique needed, yet achieve identical results. And nobody knows why. So my own reaction is that equipment like this could benefit someone who is supporting competitive cyclists (including themselves), such a person knows who they are, and has already built a few wheels. But "the rest of us" sometimes just need a reassurance that much more modest tooling will get you to a satisfactory wheel that will last a long time. Likewise for routine periodic maintenance such as tensioning and truing. My goal is decent truth, zero spoke breakage, minimal re-truing later on.
    - pixelbreaker 5y ago
      Yeah, for Pro mechanics who are paid to build the absolute best, yes perhaps it's useful. But for the rest of us, nah.
pixelbreaker 5y ago
And I just saw the price. Holy.
- mkoryak 5y ago
  As someone who has never built a wheel but as someone who has spent hundreds of dollars getting a wheel trued only to have it go out of true a month later, I can understand this price. It's easy to make (or buy) a shitty wheel, but if you commute on a bike, you need to invest in well built wheels
  - analog31 5y ago
    An issue with wheels is that bringing them up to correct tension takes time, even if someone or something is guiding the process. If the wheel is going out of true, then it wasn't properly tensioned. In that case, a machine isn't going to motivate a shop to do a better job. Deming said: "Quality control is a management problem." According to fairly widespread bike folklore (i.e., in the absence of real stats), machine built wheels tend to start out with insufficient tension. Correcting that one issue will result in a more stable and longer lasting wheel. I've seen this on two bikes in my family's fleet, both were new from bike shops, and of reputable brands. Our oldest bikes, with hand made wheels, have stayed put for decades.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Spokes can and do stretch differently over time due to manufacturing variance. Checking your wheel periodically by strumming the spokes can help identify spokes that have stretched unevenly compared to the rest. Typically you'll find the opposing spoke to also have lost some tension and probably one or two spokes earlier and later.
      - jimnotgym 5y ago
        Spokes coming loose over time can be caused by lack of stress relieving. This is where there is some twist in the spoke due to friction between the nipple and rim. This is where handbuilt wheels have an advantage
brenschluss 5y ago
Very interesting! The one-minute videos are really clear, and the interface simple and brilliant, and I went from someone knowing very little about the system to someone thinking "if I built wheels for a living, I would definitely use something like this"!
- pmontra 5y ago
  No videos on Firefox Android. I'll check on desktop later today or tomorrow, if I don't forget about it. It was really strange not to see even a single picture on the home page.
  - matsemann 5y ago
    Works fine on Firefox here, both Android and Desktop.
    - pmontra 5y ago
      Thank you. I went to the web site again and finally noticed the button to touch to popup the videos. Maybe I've been the only one to miss it but I feel that an important video should be embedded directly in the home page, possibly with no autoplay.
anthomtb 5y ago
Would this be suitable for mountain bike wheels? I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t be, just asking the dumb question. Plus this seems really valuable for mountain bikers, especially if you’re into downhill or enduro style riding where knocking a wheel out of true is a regular occurrence.
- StayTrue 5y ago
  Good for spoked wheels of every type. The speedup factor for repairs is one of the main benefits. The display highlights the most deviant parts of the wheel and shows these deviations in the context of the whole wheel. Mechanics can use the tool to take before-and-after snapshots (essentially for free), which can be helpful on the customer interaction side.
jacquesm 5y ago
Have you compared wheels you made using this method with wheels made by old school methods? If so I'm really curious what particular numbers you were chasing to determine what the 'better' wheel was. I have my own ideas on this which is why I'm interested.
- StayTrue 5y ago
  I'm not sure I understand the question. Wheel Analytics augments traditional methods, for which I have great respect (and hundreds of wheelbuilds of experience). Care is taken to preserve traditional ways of working, for example the UI is controlled by foot pedal. Its benefits reside chiefly in the process and I argue better process leads to better wheels. Wheel quality depends on knowledge, time allowed, and concern. By capturing and presenting wheel information this way, you can get the most from your knowledge and skill. By working faster, you can do a better job in the same amount of time.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Hm. Ok. For me wheel quality is defined as durability and ability to withstand stress under use. My primary interest when it comes to building wheels where it really matters what you make in the application of tandems, in particular long distance touring bikes where you are taking your bike on a holiday, packed with gear and two adults. A bad wheel can quite literally ruin your whole day, trip or worse. So there are some objective qualities that you could judge wheels by. Consistency is key, and knowing where the limits of the materials used are and how far away from those you are. An under-tensioned wheel is safer than an overtensioned one, the undertensioned wheel will fail gracefully, the overtensioned one will desintegrate. If you are optimizing for speed of building that's another matter altogether, I was hoping for a clear and objective difference in quality of build.
    - jimnotgym 5y ago
      >An under-tensioned wheel is safer than an overtensioned one Well...an undertensioned wheel is a recipe for broken spokes. Why not correctly tension a wheel? The correct tension is quite a lot higher than most builders go. An overtensioned wheel is not very easy to produce, at high tensions truing the wheel becomes super-critical in that tiny changes move the rim absurd amounts, and that is the point to back off.
dvh 5y ago
I don't understand. There are numbers on those digital indicators, why do I need black box, LCD and $100 computer?
- StayTrue 5y ago
  A naked indicator shows alignment at a single point. Wheel Analytics puts this number in context by relating it to the readings for every point on the wheel and adds analysis to help improve alignment.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
lardo 5y ago
FYI it looks like your links to the Mitutoyo website need to be updated.
- StayTrue 5y ago
  Appreciate your comment. Now fixed. I'll add a cron job to check links in the future.
matsemann 5y ago
I wrote my thesis about lacing patterns for spokes on a bicycle wheel [0] after trying to build my own wheel and experiencing how difficult it can be. Simple in theory, hard to master. Really cool to see some tech reaching this space. I think for most people this isn't needed (I don't even own a proper truing stand, just spinning my wheels while mounted somewhere), but for those building wheels daily (manufacturers, specialty shops) it can be a nice addition. What I like about is that it doesn't replace the knowledge or process. Just enhances it. So one can do as before, but probably faster thanks to the additional info. [0]: Discussed here at the time https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10410813 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10410813
- StayTrue 5y ago
  Very much on point. Wheel Analytics is designed to supercharge skills rather than replace them.
sinab 5y ago
Awesome project, thank you for sharing. What protocol / method is the controller using to communicate with the browser?
- StayTrue 5y ago
  Thanks. It uses WebSockets.
alanbernstein 5y ago
Neat project. Sorry for the off-topic question, but can you share any details about that foot pedal device? I.e. is it custom made, or something I might find on its own elsewhere? I DIYed something similar as a camera remote trigger, and it works well enough, but that simple two-pedal device would have been perfect for me.
- StayTrue 5y ago
  It's a standard industrial pedal. We have a pile of them, maybe a dozen different samples. The shell is a starting point. Final manufacturing happens here where the internal wiring is completed, internal components are added, and the output cable gets installed.
gnopgnip 5y ago
Is the market for this bike shops or mechanics that can use this tool to get work done much faster(or charge more)? Or more for an enthusiast that can build a better wheel than they could without this tool?
- StayTrue 5y ago
  The product is aimed at shops/mechanics that make money building wheels. Time is money so building a little faster is more profitable. Or a better result can be delivered in the same amount of time. If you like it will give you PDF output as receipts for your efforts, for example to show before and after snapshots of a wheel under repair (essentially for free). Little things like this can differentiate one service provider from another and/or help justify shop rates.
seshagiric 5y ago
The video explainer was awesome. Even without any knowledge of bicycle wheel tuning I was able to follow. One request though, for lesser mortals, may be another video explaining why tuning a bicycle wheel is important?
im_down_w_otp 5y ago
Building bicycle wheels used to be my personal zen activity many, many years ago. My brain and hands would go on autopilot mode and all manner of creative background processing would happen as a result. Tuning skis in the winter had a similar effect. Just remembering this and writing it down here has me thinking I should pick that up again during high-stress times like the present. This is a super cool project, OP. Very nice work.
joshmlewis 5y ago
This might be a dumb question but would this work for motorcycle spoked wheel truing as well?
- StayTrue 5y ago
  Absolutely. Needs no changes for this application. Marketing to motorcycle mechanics is one of my growth ideas but I'm focused on bicycle wheels for the moment because that's the niche I come from.
donavanm 5y ago
Fantastic, I appreciate the deep visualization of multiple inputs. As a “friends and family” hobbyist mechanic who touches a handful of wheels per year Im still interested. Its a heck of a lot faster than paper notes while working through tension. Two questions: Is there any allowance/procedure for setting the lateral center? What about detecting angle or rotation for matching tension/run out adjustments to specific spokes? I guess you could track your input values and use those to indicate direction and approximate location.

124 points by StayTrue 5y ago

adam0c 5y ago

i think I'll still with the sheldon method, built countless amounts of wheels and never needed or thought i needed to add unnecessary tech to what is such a simple job

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

pealco 5y ago

In the video, you keep saying "Turing" (turr-ing), when I think you mean to say "truing" (troo-ing).

stbtrax 5y ago
He's saying it properly and isn't even remotely strange in my mind. Are you from the midwest? You might be used to the midwest accent's vowel lengthening
- StayTrue 5y ago
  It's possible I have a Canadian accent. But now that I think about it, Turing Stand is a name with great potential. ;-)
  - pealco 5y ago
    I was so confused :) "Is the stand doing computations??"

azibi 5y ago

Would be nice if spoke tension is also measured and recorded. Spoke tension is a very important factor building robust wheels.

StayTrue 5y ago
That's one of the features. Live Tensio, one visualization in Wheel Analytics, shows live tension as you introduce your tensiometer to the wheel. A live reading can be recorded by pressing the foot pedal. Tension distribution is then presented in bar graph form along with min/max/avg. A printable version can be generated for record keeping or sharing with customers for marketing purposes. You are 100% right that tension is a critical wheel dimension.
- azibi 5y ago
  Ah, I see now. Only saw first intro movie. Interesting tool, although I`m not a wheel builder. Its a real craftsmanship ;)
jacquesm 5y ago
Strum the spokes and listen. That's a very easy way to get your spokes within a very small margin of error tensioned accurately.
- jimnotgym 5y ago
  It is a way to get them consistent very easily, but getting them to an optimum tension is hard to define.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    The optimum is very much dependent on the materials used (steel wheel, aluminum wheel, single or multiple layers, the kind of spoke nipple used, the spoke thickness, the number of spokes, the shape of the spokes, the length of the spoke and so on). If you don't know exactly what you are doing I would stay away from the optimum and simply play it safe, it doesn't really pay to find that you over estimated one or more of the parts. Overtensioning is much more dangerous than undertensioning, what is far more important is that you tension the spokes evenly, and if you have asymmetric spokes (for instance: most rear wheels) that you tighten the shorter side a little bit more. Consistency is key.

blakesterz 5y ago

It's been years since I built a wheel, but this seems useful for just truing up a wheel after it gets beat up. Very cool, I would've loved to have this setup when I worked in a shop.

pixelbreaker 5y ago

The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt is all I ever needed. I've built hundreds of wheels, I don't feel I need this tool. I guess if you're being really anal about it it's of value. I've used a spoke tensioner once ever, just a stand and a good feel for tension is fine. I've ridden over 60000km on my wheels, no problems.

idontknowifican 5y ago
we both know that there are many types of cyclists. you’re clearly one of the 95% rider 5% equipment camp, but i don’t fully agree with you wrt racing. in racing (cat 6 all the way to cat 1) these sorts if things can provide the .5% boost needed. i guess this is more of a comment on the sort of people who would take the time to let us know how little they need help because they are so talented, when all it does is show how little they can understand others needs
- analog31 5y ago
  I build my own wheels too. There's another reason for these kinds of comments, which is that a lot of cyclists have been persuaded that wheelbuilding (and other kinds of bike work) is a deep philosophical mystery requiring decades of experience and a shop full of specialized tooling. Yet people have maintained their own bikes satisfactorily with basic tools for more than a century. This happens in any technical discipline -- two people will disagree diametrically on the amount of gear and technique needed, yet achieve identical results. And nobody knows why. So my own reaction is that equipment like this could benefit someone who is supporting competitive cyclists (including themselves), such a person knows who they are, and has already built a few wheels. But "the rest of us" sometimes just need a reassurance that much more modest tooling will get you to a satisfactory wheel that will last a long time. Likewise for routine periodic maintenance such as tensioning and truing. My goal is decent truth, zero spoke breakage, minimal re-truing later on.
  - pixelbreaker 5y ago
    Yeah, for Pro mechanics who are paid to build the absolute best, yes perhaps it's useful. But for the rest of us, nah.

pixelbreaker 5y ago

And I just saw the price. Holy.

mkoryak 5y ago
As someone who has never built a wheel but as someone who has spent hundreds of dollars getting a wheel trued only to have it go out of true a month later, I can understand this price. It's easy to make (or buy) a shitty wheel, but if you commute on a bike, you need to invest in well built wheels
- analog31 5y ago
  An issue with wheels is that bringing them up to correct tension takes time, even if someone or something is guiding the process. If the wheel is going out of true, then it wasn't properly tensioned. In that case, a machine isn't going to motivate a shop to do a better job. Deming said: "Quality control is a management problem." According to fairly widespread bike folklore (i.e., in the absence of real stats), machine built wheels tend to start out with insufficient tension. Correcting that one issue will result in a more stable and longer lasting wheel. I've seen this on two bikes in my family's fleet, both were new from bike shops, and of reputable brands. Our oldest bikes, with hand made wheels, have stayed put for decades.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Spokes can and do stretch differently over time due to manufacturing variance. Checking your wheel periodically by strumming the spokes can help identify spokes that have stretched unevenly compared to the rest. Typically you'll find the opposing spoke to also have lost some tension and probably one or two spokes earlier and later.
    - jimnotgym 5y ago
      Spokes coming loose over time can be caused by lack of stress relieving. This is where there is some twist in the spoke due to friction between the nipple and rim. This is where handbuilt wheels have an advantage

brenschluss 5y ago

Very interesting! The one-minute videos are really clear, and the interface simple and brilliant, and I went from someone knowing very little about the system to someone thinking "if I built wheels for a living, I would definitely use something like this"!

pmontra 5y ago
No videos on Firefox Android. I'll check on desktop later today or tomorrow, if I don't forget about it. It was really strange not to see even a single picture on the home page.
- matsemann 5y ago
  Works fine on Firefox here, both Android and Desktop.
  - pmontra 5y ago
    Thank you. I went to the web site again and finally noticed the button to touch to popup the videos. Maybe I've been the only one to miss it but I feel that an important video should be embedded directly in the home page, possibly with no autoplay.

anthomtb 5y ago

Would this be suitable for mountain bike wheels? I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t be, just asking the dumb question. Plus this seems really valuable for mountain bikers, especially if you’re into downhill or enduro style riding where knocking a wheel out of true is a regular occurrence.

StayTrue 5y ago
Good for spoked wheels of every type. The speedup factor for repairs is one of the main benefits. The display highlights the most deviant parts of the wheel and shows these deviations in the context of the whole wheel. Mechanics can use the tool to take before-and-after snapshots (essentially for free), which can be helpful on the customer interaction side.

jacquesm 5y ago

Have you compared wheels you made using this method with wheels made by old school methods? If so I'm really curious what particular numbers you were chasing to determine what the 'better' wheel was. I have my own ideas on this which is why I'm interested.

StayTrue 5y ago
I'm not sure I understand the question. Wheel Analytics augments traditional methods, for which I have great respect (and hundreds of wheelbuilds of experience). Care is taken to preserve traditional ways of working, for example the UI is controlled by foot pedal. Its benefits reside chiefly in the process and I argue better process leads to better wheels. Wheel quality depends on knowledge, time allowed, and concern. By capturing and presenting wheel information this way, you can get the most from your knowledge and skill. By working faster, you can do a better job in the same amount of time.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Hm. Ok. For me wheel quality is defined as durability and ability to withstand stress under use. My primary interest when it comes to building wheels where it really matters what you make in the application of tandems, in particular long distance touring bikes where you are taking your bike on a holiday, packed with gear and two adults. A bad wheel can quite literally ruin your whole day, trip or worse. So there are some objective qualities that you could judge wheels by. Consistency is key, and knowing where the limits of the materials used are and how far away from those you are. An under-tensioned wheel is safer than an overtensioned one, the undertensioned wheel will fail gracefully, the overtensioned one will desintegrate. If you are optimizing for speed of building that's another matter altogether, I was hoping for a clear and objective difference in quality of build.
  - jimnotgym 5y ago
    >An under-tensioned wheel is safer than an overtensioned one Well...an undertensioned wheel is a recipe for broken spokes. Why not correctly tension a wheel? The correct tension is quite a lot higher than most builders go. An overtensioned wheel is not very easy to produce, at high tensions truing the wheel becomes super-critical in that tiny changes move the rim absurd amounts, and that is the point to back off.

dvh 5y ago

I don't understand. There are numbers on those digital indicators, why do I need black box, LCD and $100 computer?

StayTrue 5y ago
A naked indicator shows alignment at a single point. Wheel Analytics puts this number in context by relating it to the readings for every point on the wheel and adds analysis to help improve alignment.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

lardo 5y ago

FYI it looks like your links to the Mitutoyo website need to be updated.

StayTrue 5y ago
Appreciate your comment. Now fixed. I'll add a cron job to check links in the future.

matsemann 5y ago

I wrote my thesis about lacing patterns for spokes on a bicycle wheel [0] after trying to build my own wheel and experiencing how difficult it can be. Simple in theory, hard to master. Really cool to see some tech reaching this space. I think for most people this isn't needed (I don't even own a proper truing stand, just spinning my wheels while mounted somewhere), but for those building wheels daily (manufacturers, specialty shops) it can be a nice addition. What I like about is that it doesn't replace the knowledge or process. Just enhances it. So one can do as before, but probably faster thanks to the additional info. [0]: Discussed here at the time https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10410813 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10410813

StayTrue 5y ago
Very much on point. Wheel Analytics is designed to supercharge skills rather than replace them.

sinab 5y ago

Awesome project, thank you for sharing. What protocol / method is the controller using to communicate with the browser?

StayTrue 5y ago
Thanks. It uses WebSockets.

alanbernstein 5y ago

Neat project. Sorry for the off-topic question, but can you share any details about that foot pedal device? I.e. is it custom made, or something I might find on its own elsewhere? I DIYed something similar as a camera remote trigger, and it works well enough, but that simple two-pedal device would have been perfect for me.

StayTrue 5y ago
It's a standard industrial pedal. We have a pile of them, maybe a dozen different samples. The shell is a starting point. Final manufacturing happens here where the internal wiring is completed, internal components are added, and the output cable gets installed.

gnopgnip 5y ago

Is the market for this bike shops or mechanics that can use this tool to get work done much faster(or charge more)? Or more for an enthusiast that can build a better wheel than they could without this tool?

StayTrue 5y ago
The product is aimed at shops/mechanics that make money building wheels. Time is money so building a little faster is more profitable. Or a better result can be delivered in the same amount of time. If you like it will give you PDF output as receipts for your efforts, for example to show before and after snapshots of a wheel under repair (essentially for free). Little things like this can differentiate one service provider from another and/or help justify shop rates.

seshagiric 5y ago

The video explainer was awesome. Even without any knowledge of bicycle wheel tuning I was able to follow. One request though, for lesser mortals, may be another video explaining why tuning a bicycle wheel is important?

im_down_w_otp 5y ago

Building bicycle wheels used to be my personal zen activity many, many years ago. My brain and hands would go on autopilot mode and all manner of creative background processing would happen as a result. Tuning skis in the winter had a similar effect. Just remembering this and writing it down here has me thinking I should pick that up again during high-stress times like the present. This is a super cool project, OP. Very nice work.

joshmlewis 5y ago

This might be a dumb question but would this work for motorcycle spoked wheel truing as well?

StayTrue 5y ago
Absolutely. Needs no changes for this application. Marketing to motorcycle mechanics is one of my growth ideas but I'm focused on bicycle wheels for the moment because that's the niche I come from.

donavanm 5y ago

Fantastic, I appreciate the deep visualization of multiple inputs. As a “friends and family” hobbyist mechanic who touches a handful of wheels per year Im still interested. Its a heck of a lot faster than paper notes while working through tension. Two questions: Is there any allowance/procedure for setting the lateral center? What about detecting angle or rotation for matching tension/run out adjustments to specific spokes? I guess you could track your input values and use those to indicate direction and approximate location.