6 ms·

This was really great to read. Recently, I read Ted Kaczynski's "Industrial Society and its Future", aka the Unabomber Manifesto. The idea of anarcho-primitivis

by SCUSKU 5y ago

This was really great to read. Recently, I read Ted Kaczynski's "Industrial Society and its Future", aka the Unabomber Manifesto. The idea of anarcho-primitivist living is actually really attractive in theory, and this is a great example of someone actually living this lifestyle in practice. It seems tough. I'm not so sure I could essentially live a life of vagrancy and dumpster diving. Maybe I have been overly socialized and sold ideas that status and comfort are more important than freedom from "wage slavery". But I think author also concedes that there is a spectrum for everyone, and just doing your best to reduce reliance on society will be to your benefit. At least for me, a step in this direction would be to go thrift shopping from here on out for clothing, and to learn how to repair clothing. Also, living in SF, there is a bakery nearby that puts their unsold baguettes for free on the street every night. I shouldn't think of myself being above picking some of those up. I guess the idea is just to live a little more sustainably and produce less waste.

number6 5y ago
All fun and games until you start to blow up people
JackMorgan 5y ago
Thrift shopping is one way I deal with the ethical dilemma of overseas wage slavery. If possible, I try to buy things used. Stuff like furniture, clothes, and decor often can be found in excellent condition used, sometimes even substantially cheaper. I do not try quite so hard with performance gear (I'm an athlete) or food. The amount of time and risks are just much higher for both of those categories. For example, trail runners are just destroyed after 500 miles, but often look the same as a pair with 50. Also electronics, I'll definitely pay full price for RAM, hard drives, etc.
telesilla 5y ago
>I'm not so sure I could essentially live a life of vagrancy and dumpster diving Isn't this essentially a hunter-gatherer life? Our brains are really good at this.
- mikelevins 5y ago
  Many years ago, I was poor enough to live this way for a while. It's not as bad as you might imagine, as long as you live some place with good dumpsters and know how to find them. Really, the worst thing about it was that if your resources are sufficiently scarce and unpredictable that you're motivated to learn how to live this way, then you most likely have a bunch of other unpleasant problems, like food and shelter insecurity, and you are probably suffering a lot of stress and anxiety because of it. Also, hunter-gatherer societies are societies; they offer mutual aid and support and close relationships. Our society works differently, and if you're stressed enough to learn dumpster diving, then there's a good chance that you need more social support and close relationships than you have readily available.
  - hamiltonians 5y ago
    foodstores have good dumpsters
    - mikelevins 5y ago
      Yes, I found that to be true back in the 1980s. Some were better than others. There was even one I knew of where the employees were fairly organized about how they packed their dumpsters, so that it was easy for people to find and retrieve the discarded food that was in good shape.
bambax 5y ago
> and to learn how to repair clothing This isn't easy and to be done well, involves a sewing machine. But there is another way: have someone repair your clothes for you! It's usually quite cheap and very effective. I have very few items of clothing and usually wear them for 5-10 years, sometimes longer for things I don't use often (like a winter coat).
- andi999 5y ago
  Where is having somebody repairing your clothing cheap? Mending a pair of jeans here costs almost as much as a new pair.
  - maccard 5y ago
    I live in the UK, you can have a patch repair done to jeans, or a small alteration done for ~£10-15
    - andi999 5y ago
      Isnt that the price of an unbranded jeans?
      - rascul 5y ago
        In the US I pay about $15 to $25 for jeans. No idea how much it would cost to have someone repair them.
        paulryanrogers 5y ago
        Depending on whom you hire repairs can be more than that. Still, paying someone to repair is more money supporting a local family and less waste.
  - gkop 5y ago
    Parent commenter’s point is you have options. Have you considered the wages and working conditions of the humans that manufactured that cheap new pair of jeans? We’re not talking about saving you money, we’re talking about you accepting certain trade offs (inconvenience, possibly increased cost or needing to learn a new skill), so that you can feel better about avoiding contributing to human suffering in sweat shops. Another perspective is, if you are buying jeans that are not economical to repair - considering buying better quality jeans! With some research, you might even find high quality jeans made by people earning a living wage under healthy working conditions. Jeans you might love for a decade or more (good for the planet too!). If you’re not open to these trade offs, I totally get it, most people aren’t - but this thread is not for you.
pfortuny 5y ago
I have also read Kaczynski. The two main problems are: his notion of freedom, which is too simplistic (almost akin to absence of conditioning) and his rose-colored view of an imaginary past which dis not exist ever (past without technology in which life was a kind of perpetual paradise). Otherwise, the reading is interesting. But being free is something in the heart, as so many mystics of all religions living in labour camps have taught us.
- Beltalowda 5y ago
  I don't think Kaczynski offers very good solutions; they're unbalanced and far too extreme: he throws out the baby with the bathwater. But I do think he correctly identifies several severe pain points in our society that not enough people are talking about; I think that's the real value of Kaczynski's work. I think it's unfortunate that Kaczynski resorted to such extreme measures to publish his work, which I think has put many people off (not too dissimilar to how the IRA put off many people from the Catholics' rightful cause, or the PLO/Hamas in Palestine, etc.)
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Please, let's not keep up this nutty craziness of crediting a deranged terrorist for ideas that he stole outright from serious anarcho-primitivist theorists and scholars who have never engaged in the slightest sort of politicized violence. It's just disgraceful.
    - klik99 5y ago
      What better way to understand the flaws in the system than understand the gripes of those who were driven truly to the edge? He didn't exist in a vacuum. Most "deranged terrorists" you have to really read between the lines of what they're saying to see how the system failed them, because it's easy to place blame in the wrong places, but he was smart and eloquent (which deranged people can be). Looking at what he got right, what he got wrong, and how he fails at a solution is important - if ignored then people coming to it will see nothing to refute it, just a lot of people avoiding looking at it. In a sense the Unabomber manifesto is a visible symptom of some invisible systemic problems. You don't have to agree with the conclusions to see value in something - heck, I see Marx discussed in republican think tank pieces occasionally because they agree with some parts of his analysis, even if they disagree fundamentally with his proposed solutions.
enobrev 5y ago
> a step in this direction would be to go thrift shopping I would definitely be into this, but it's practically useless at 6'6". But I do try to keep the clothes I have for as long as possible.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

by SCUSKU 5y ago

number6 5y ago

All fun and games until you start to blow up people

JackMorgan 5y ago

Thrift shopping is one way I deal with the ethical dilemma of overseas wage slavery. If possible, I try to buy things used. Stuff like furniture, clothes, and decor often can be found in excellent condition used, sometimes even substantially cheaper. I do not try quite so hard with performance gear (I'm an athlete) or food. The amount of time and risks are just much higher for both of those categories. For example, trail runners are just destroyed after 500 miles, but often look the same as a pair with 50. Also electronics, I'll definitely pay full price for RAM, hard drives, etc.

telesilla 5y ago

>I'm not so sure I could essentially live a life of vagrancy and dumpster diving Isn't this essentially a hunter-gatherer life? Our brains are really good at this.

mikelevins 5y ago
Many years ago, I was poor enough to live this way for a while. It's not as bad as you might imagine, as long as you live some place with good dumpsters and know how to find them. Really, the worst thing about it was that if your resources are sufficiently scarce and unpredictable that you're motivated to learn how to live this way, then you most likely have a bunch of other unpleasant problems, like food and shelter insecurity, and you are probably suffering a lot of stress and anxiety because of it. Also, hunter-gatherer societies are societies; they offer mutual aid and support and close relationships. Our society works differently, and if you're stressed enough to learn dumpster diving, then there's a good chance that you need more social support and close relationships than you have readily available.
- hamiltonians 5y ago
  foodstores have good dumpsters
  - mikelevins 5y ago
    Yes, I found that to be true back in the 1980s. Some were better than others. There was even one I knew of where the employees were fairly organized about how they packed their dumpsters, so that it was easy for people to find and retrieve the discarded food that was in good shape.

bambax 5y ago

> and to learn how to repair clothing This isn't easy and to be done well, involves a sewing machine. But there is another way: have someone repair your clothes for you! It's usually quite cheap and very effective. I have very few items of clothing and usually wear them for 5-10 years, sometimes longer for things I don't use often (like a winter coat).

andi999 5y ago
Where is having somebody repairing your clothing cheap? Mending a pair of jeans here costs almost as much as a new pair.
- maccard 5y ago
  I live in the UK, you can have a patch repair done to jeans, or a small alteration done for ~£10-15
  - andi999 5y ago
    Isnt that the price of an unbranded jeans?
    - rascul 5y ago
      In the US I pay about $15 to $25 for jeans. No idea how much it would cost to have someone repair them.
      - paulryanrogers 5y ago
        Depending on whom you hire repairs can be more than that. Still, paying someone to repair is more money supporting a local family and less waste.
- gkop 5y ago
  Parent commenter’s point is you have options. Have you considered the wages and working conditions of the humans that manufactured that cheap new pair of jeans? We’re not talking about saving you money, we’re talking about you accepting certain trade offs (inconvenience, possibly increased cost or needing to learn a new skill), so that you can feel better about avoiding contributing to human suffering in sweat shops. Another perspective is, if you are buying jeans that are not economical to repair - considering buying better quality jeans! With some research, you might even find high quality jeans made by people earning a living wage under healthy working conditions. Jeans you might love for a decade or more (good for the planet too!). If you’re not open to these trade offs, I totally get it, most people aren’t - but this thread is not for you.

pfortuny 5y ago

I have also read Kaczynski. The two main problems are: his notion of freedom, which is too simplistic (almost akin to absence of conditioning) and his rose-colored view of an imaginary past which dis not exist ever (past without technology in which life was a kind of perpetual paradise). Otherwise, the reading is interesting. But being free is something in the heart, as so many mystics of all religions living in labour camps have taught us.

Beltalowda 5y ago
I don't think Kaczynski offers very good solutions; they're unbalanced and far too extreme: he throws out the baby with the bathwater. But I do think he correctly identifies several severe pain points in our society that not enough people are talking about; I think that's the real value of Kaczynski's work. I think it's unfortunate that Kaczynski resorted to such extreme measures to publish his work, which I think has put many people off (not too dissimilar to how the IRA put off many people from the Catholics' rightful cause, or the PLO/Hamas in Palestine, etc.)
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Please, let's not keep up this nutty craziness of crediting a deranged terrorist for ideas that he stole outright from serious anarcho-primitivist theorists and scholars who have never engaged in the slightest sort of politicized violence. It's just disgraceful.
  - klik99 5y ago
    What better way to understand the flaws in the system than understand the gripes of those who were driven truly to the edge? He didn't exist in a vacuum. Most "deranged terrorists" you have to really read between the lines of what they're saying to see how the system failed them, because it's easy to place blame in the wrong places, but he was smart and eloquent (which deranged people can be). Looking at what he got right, what he got wrong, and how he fails at a solution is important - if ignored then people coming to it will see nothing to refute it, just a lot of people avoiding looking at it. In a sense the Unabomber manifesto is a visible symptom of some invisible systemic problems. You don't have to agree with the conclusions to see value in something - heck, I see Marx discussed in republican think tank pieces occasionally because they agree with some parts of his analysis, even if they disagree fundamentally with his proposed solutions.

enobrev 5y ago

> a step in this direction would be to go thrift shopping I would definitely be into this, but it's practically useless at 6'6". But I do try to keep the clothes I have for as long as possible.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]