5 ms·

I know it isn't the main thrust of the piece, but I think the author nailed the real way that laws are used. > The key difference is that such “flexible offens

by Gunax 5y ago

I know it isn't the main thrust of the piece, but I think the author nailed the real way that laws are used. > The key difference is that such “flexible offenses” tend to be defined more in terms of how someone important doesn’t like an outcome, and less in terms of what specifically someone did to induce that resulting dislike. There are so many crimes that anyone can be charged at any time. The reality of prosecution (in the USA, but moreso in the soviet union and other places) is that often prosecutors first decide who needs to be charged with a crime, and secondly what crime to charge. And there are enough laws that there is always something to charge. This is also how the Soviet Union--which ostensibly had free speech and assembly--operated. Anyone who was problematic would find themselves guilty of obscure tax violations or other nonsense. The book '3 felonies per day' is focused on this problem. I happen to think this is one of the most under-stated problems of our society, and it's difficult to fix because the people charged often did do something bad--just not illegal. As an example: the recent news of a journalist charged with hacking that gov website comes to mind.

gruez 5y ago
>The book '3 felonies per day' is focused on this problem. tangential: is there a tl;dr of the book? Does the typical american really commit 3 felonies a day? If so, what?
- Gunax 5y ago
  The book is roughly about the issue I talk about: laws are complex and innumerable and anyone can be found at fault. In short, we expect investigators to first be notified of a crime, then investigate to determine who committed it. Instead, they sometimes choose who needs to be convicted first--then investigate them until determining what the charge will be. For an overview, how about this: https://ulrichboser.com/how-many-felonies-did-you-commit-today-an-interview-with-harvey-silverglate/ https://ulrichboser.com/how-many-felonies-did-you-commit-tod...
- lozenge 5y ago
  According to the negative Amazon reviews, no, the book never finds typical Americans committing felonies. However, if you're a doctor, or a farmer, or a politician, then surprise! There are special laws to follow that most people don't think about. One case involves somebody "out in the woods gathering shell casings from federal land", a very normal activity.
drzaiusapelord 5y ago
This is also how the USA keeps down communities of color. A white suburban kid with drugs is "boys will be boys." A black urban kid with drugs is "throw the book at this thug." A white terrorist must be "understood" and sympathized. A minority terrorist is a monster that must be exterminated. A white applicant is a "good culture fit." A black applicant is "urban" and "challenging for our corporate culture." A white missing girl is an urgent emergency. A black missing girl is a "streetsmart" young-lady probably off with friends. etc,etc. All corrupt states do this and the USA's corruption is easily at Soviet levels.
- elevaet 5y ago
  I was with you until >the USA's corruption is easily at Soviet levels. This statement is hard to quantify, but as an observer who never lived in USSR and only briefly in the USA, there's no way. The USSR was rotten to the core. USA has it's own rot for sure and needs to fix so much, but it's no where close to Soviet levels of corruption. There's a reason so many Russians fled for the USA and not vice-versa.
  - drzaiusapelord 5y ago
    The USA just had the losing president incite a riot at the capital to stop the rightful winner of the election from taking power. On top of asking multiple foreign governments for election help and pardoning his cronies who helped him with this. In response his party has put in hardcore laws limiting the right to vote for many liberal and disenfranchised communities. The USA lied to start a war in Iraq that killed at least 200,000 people. The US started and led and funded War of Terror has killed 900,000 people (Brown University). Nearly all these deaths were Muslims. The USA has intense income inequality and the police regularly murder its citizens with impunity. The current president is at best a mislead old man or an active oppressor, responsible for much of the law that keeps communities of color in debt and unfairly jailed by draconian crime bills that targeted the PoC community. The US media is almost exclusively corporate and owned by a handful of corporate entities most own by billionaires who use such media to push views that benefit them politically and economical. The USA is rife with conspiracy theories and has a very low vaccination rate compared to its western peers for reasons above. The USA is best seen as an oligarchy where the wealthy get what they want from a legislative agenda perspective and are almost always above the law. Trump's only signature piece of legislation and the GOP's top priority was a significant tax cut for the wealthy that was permanent and a lesser one for the middle class that expires. The USA has nearly 30m uninsured people compared to their western peers who all have some type of universal health insurance system. The USA is destroying women's right, especially the right to choose and access to birth control and the morning after pill. The USA has an incarceration rate of 639 inmates per 100,000 people, which is the worst in the world. This almost twice the USSR's rate. 40% of these inmates are black in a country where 13% of the population is black. I think a lot of Americans are in denial of the everyday corruption here. >There's a reason so many Russians fled for the USA I'm not sure how true this is. We didn't see significant migration from the Eastern Bloc until their economies got much much worse. Communist nations that did well economically had low levels of migration. The same way largely Democratic, yet poor, Crimean Ukrainians welcomed corrupt Russian annexation because it meant being part of the powerful Russian economy ($3k gdp per capita vs $10k). In other words, people welcome an oppressive state if it means more money. Flights for freedom are often propaganda. Flights for money are often the truth. My parents fled their country to go to the USA solely for economic reasons. "Freedom", mom, apple pie, and baseball are laughable bullshit to the immigrant community. >and not vice-versa. The USA had 2x the GDP capita than the USSR during 1980s migrations. Again, this was purely an economic flight for nearly all immigrants.
hartator 5y ago
> This is also how the Soviet Union--which ostensibly had free speech and assembly--operated. It didn't though. Or the same way China has freedom of speech. You disappear if you say things the regime doesn't like. It's also codified in the RSFSR Penal Code. 58-10 seems pretty explicit by itself: 58-10. Anti-Soviet and counter-revolutionary propaganda and agitation: at least 6 months of imprisonment. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_58_(RSFSR_Penal_Code) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_58_(RSFSR_Penal_Code) The parallel with the U.S. system even if far from being perfect is disingenuous.
- emsy 5y ago
  Ever heard of Snowden, Manning and Assange (who isn’t even a US citizen!)? While I agree that the US isn’t China or Russia, it’s closer to those than other western countries. If you told someone in Europe about asset forfeitures, they would think you’re from some rogue state.
drekipus 5y ago
It's a way to gain and maintain power, which is why it was used in the Soviet union. It's probably why people don't talk about it, because many feel like it could come in handy for them in the future.

by Gunax 5y ago

gruez 5y ago

>The book '3 felonies per day' is focused on this problem. tangential: is there a tl;dr of the book? Does the typical american really commit 3 felonies a day? If so, what?

Gunax 5y ago
The book is roughly about the issue I talk about: laws are complex and innumerable and anyone can be found at fault. In short, we expect investigators to first be notified of a crime, then investigate to determine who committed it. Instead, they sometimes choose who needs to be convicted first--then investigate them until determining what the charge will be. For an overview, how about this: https://ulrichboser.com/how-many-felonies-did-you-commit-today-an-interview-with-harvey-silverglate/ https://ulrichboser.com/how-many-felonies-did-you-commit-tod...
lozenge 5y ago
According to the negative Amazon reviews, no, the book never finds typical Americans committing felonies. However, if you're a doctor, or a farmer, or a politician, then surprise! There are special laws to follow that most people don't think about. One case involves somebody "out in the woods gathering shell casings from federal land", a very normal activity.

drzaiusapelord 5y ago

This is also how the USA keeps down communities of color. A white suburban kid with drugs is "boys will be boys." A black urban kid with drugs is "throw the book at this thug." A white terrorist must be "understood" and sympathized. A minority terrorist is a monster that must be exterminated. A white applicant is a "good culture fit." A black applicant is "urban" and "challenging for our corporate culture." A white missing girl is an urgent emergency. A black missing girl is a "streetsmart" young-lady probably off with friends. etc,etc. All corrupt states do this and the USA's corruption is easily at Soviet levels.

elevaet 5y ago
I was with you until >the USA's corruption is easily at Soviet levels. This statement is hard to quantify, but as an observer who never lived in USSR and only briefly in the USA, there's no way. The USSR was rotten to the core. USA has it's own rot for sure and needs to fix so much, but it's no where close to Soviet levels of corruption. There's a reason so many Russians fled for the USA and not vice-versa.
- drzaiusapelord 5y ago
  The USA just had the losing president incite a riot at the capital to stop the rightful winner of the election from taking power. On top of asking multiple foreign governments for election help and pardoning his cronies who helped him with this. In response his party has put in hardcore laws limiting the right to vote for many liberal and disenfranchised communities. The USA lied to start a war in Iraq that killed at least 200,000 people. The US started and led and funded War of Terror has killed 900,000 people (Brown University). Nearly all these deaths were Muslims. The USA has intense income inequality and the police regularly murder its citizens with impunity. The current president is at best a mislead old man or an active oppressor, responsible for much of the law that keeps communities of color in debt and unfairly jailed by draconian crime bills that targeted the PoC community. The US media is almost exclusively corporate and owned by a handful of corporate entities most own by billionaires who use such media to push views that benefit them politically and economical. The USA is rife with conspiracy theories and has a very low vaccination rate compared to its western peers for reasons above. The USA is best seen as an oligarchy where the wealthy get what they want from a legislative agenda perspective and are almost always above the law. Trump's only signature piece of legislation and the GOP's top priority was a significant tax cut for the wealthy that was permanent and a lesser one for the middle class that expires. The USA has nearly 30m uninsured people compared to their western peers who all have some type of universal health insurance system. The USA is destroying women's right, especially the right to choose and access to birth control and the morning after pill. The USA has an incarceration rate of 639 inmates per 100,000 people, which is the worst in the world. This almost twice the USSR's rate. 40% of these inmates are black in a country where 13% of the population is black. I think a lot of Americans are in denial of the everyday corruption here. >There's a reason so many Russians fled for the USA I'm not sure how true this is. We didn't see significant migration from the Eastern Bloc until their economies got much much worse. Communist nations that did well economically had low levels of migration. The same way largely Democratic, yet poor, Crimean Ukrainians welcomed corrupt Russian annexation because it meant being part of the powerful Russian economy ($3k gdp per capita vs $10k). In other words, people welcome an oppressive state if it means more money. Flights for freedom are often propaganda. Flights for money are often the truth. My parents fled their country to go to the USA solely for economic reasons. "Freedom", mom, apple pie, and baseball are laughable bullshit to the immigrant community. >and not vice-versa. The USA had 2x the GDP capita than the USSR during 1980s migrations. Again, this was purely an economic flight for nearly all immigrants.

hartator 5y ago

> This is also how the Soviet Union--which ostensibly had free speech and assembly--operated. It didn't though. Or the same way China has freedom of speech. You disappear if you say things the regime doesn't like. It's also codified in the RSFSR Penal Code. 58-10 seems pretty explicit by itself: 58-10. Anti-Soviet and counter-revolutionary propaganda and agitation: at least 6 months of imprisonment. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_58_(RSFSR_Penal_Code) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_58_(RSFSR_Penal_Code) The parallel with the U.S. system even if far from being perfect is disingenuous.

emsy 5y ago
Ever heard of Snowden, Manning and Assange (who isn’t even a US citizen!)? While I agree that the US isn’t China or Russia, it’s closer to those than other western countries. If you told someone in Europe about asset forfeitures, they would think you’re from some rogue state.

drekipus 5y ago

It's a way to gain and maintain power, which is why it was used in the Soviet union. It's probably why people don't talk about it, because many feel like it could come in handy for them in the future.