5 ms·

So what is WASM expected to bring to the table for this use case we don't already have today? It's the latest iteration of Java Applets, Flash, Silverlight, PN

by cygx 5y ago

So what is WASM expected to bring to the table for this use case we don't already have today? It's the latest iteration of Java Applets, Flash, Silverlight, PNaCL, ... If something gets re-invented over and over again, there clearly is a niche to fill. "Embedded" is a very broad term. The vast majority of true embedded systems will not be able to afford running a VM, or even using dynamic memory. Note that since 2007, Blue Ray players are required to run a JVM to support the 'bonus view' feature. The number of devices beefy enough to run VMs has only grown since.

Rochus 5y ago
> It's the latest iteration of Java Applets, Flash, Silverlight, PNaCL, My question was about the "elsewhere" use case; I'm familiar with the original intention of WASM, and the technologies you mention are well covered by HTML5 and JS today. > "The number of devices beefy enough to run VMs" That's not the point. The point is that industry will rather use a cheep microcontroller still today if there is no justification for something more powerful, and these controllers cannot afford VMs or dynamic memory management. Of course there are always people running MicroPython or friends on MCUs, but this is a niche.
- tormeh 5y ago
  I think they meant embedded as in "Windows Embedded Edition".
- cygx 5y ago
  the technologies you mention are well covered by HTML5 and JS today Browser vendors could have decided to choose the pure Javascript route (eg asm.js, SIMD.js), but for now have decided to throw their weight behind WASM instead: SIMD.js got canned in 2017, whereas SIMD support for WASM shipped in browsers last year. Regarding your second point about embedded devices, I can easily imagine WASM being used in the class of devices targeted by Java ME[1]. I'll of course happily defer to people who actually know something about the topic: If you think there's no legitimate use case for WASM in that space, so be it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connected_Limited_Device_Configuration#Typical_requirements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connected_Limited_Device_Confi...
- pjmlp 5y ago
  They aren't so well covered, given how lacking the whole tooling is. Thankfully WebAssembly + WebGL have brought them back, that is the only reason I appreciate WebAssembly (on the browser).
  - Rochus 5y ago
    Interesting. But WebGL is a JS API, so you cannot directly access it with current WASM browser implementations, isn't it? I had a look at the Qt WASM implementation some time ago and found it extremely inefficient, not only because apparently everything has to be marshalled via JS. Has this improved in v1.1?
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      It is fast enough for bringing back Flash like experience. https://platform.uno/uno-platform-for-web-webassemby https://platform.uno/uno-platform-for-web-webassemby https://leaningtech.com/cheerpx-for-flash/ https://leaningtech.com/cheerpx-for-flash/ Or Java applets https://leaningtech.com/cheerpj/ https://leaningtech.com/cheerpj/ Or Silverlight https://opensilver.net/ https://opensilver.net/

by cygx 5y ago

Rochus 5y ago

> It's the latest iteration of Java Applets, Flash, Silverlight, PNaCL, My question was about the "elsewhere" use case; I'm familiar with the original intention of WASM, and the technologies you mention are well covered by HTML5 and JS today. > "The number of devices beefy enough to run VMs" That's not the point. The point is that industry will rather use a cheep microcontroller still today if there is no justification for something more powerful, and these controllers cannot afford VMs or dynamic memory management. Of course there are always people running MicroPython or friends on MCUs, but this is a niche.

tormeh 5y ago
I think they meant embedded as in "Windows Embedded Edition".
cygx 5y ago
the technologies you mention are well covered by HTML5 and JS today Browser vendors could have decided to choose the pure Javascript route (eg asm.js, SIMD.js), but for now have decided to throw their weight behind WASM instead: SIMD.js got canned in 2017, whereas SIMD support for WASM shipped in browsers last year. Regarding your second point about embedded devices, I can easily imagine WASM being used in the class of devices targeted by Java ME[1]. I'll of course happily defer to people who actually know something about the topic: If you think there's no legitimate use case for WASM in that space, so be it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connected_Limited_Device_Configuration#Typical_requirements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connected_Limited_Device_Confi...
pjmlp 5y ago
They aren't so well covered, given how lacking the whole tooling is. Thankfully WebAssembly + WebGL have brought them back, that is the only reason I appreciate WebAssembly (on the browser).
- Rochus 5y ago
  Interesting. But WebGL is a JS API, so you cannot directly access it with current WASM browser implementations, isn't it? I had a look at the Qt WASM implementation some time ago and found it extremely inefficient, not only because apparently everything has to be marshalled via JS. Has this improved in v1.1?
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    It is fast enough for bringing back Flash like experience. https://platform.uno/uno-platform-for-web-webassemby https://platform.uno/uno-platform-for-web-webassemby https://leaningtech.com/cheerpx-for-flash/ https://leaningtech.com/cheerpx-for-flash/ Or Java applets https://leaningtech.com/cheerpj/ https://leaningtech.com/cheerpj/ Or Silverlight https://opensilver.net/ https://opensilver.net/