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I had a response to a comment of mine here on HN recently that effectively made this same argument-- that letting corporations influence our behavior is being s

by mod 5y ago

I had a response to a comment of mine here on HN recently that effectively made this same argument-- that letting corporations influence our behavior is being slept on as one of the great problems in our society. After thinking it through, I thoroughly agree. I'm not convinced of a proper course of action to correct it, but I do definitely think it's a problem as a whole. A world where we just seek out and buy the things we need and that will actually enrich or lives sounds like a great improvement over the current system.

nicoffeine 5y ago
I think there was almost a good system in place: a variety of ad-supported sites that professionally reviewed new products, and a variety of ad-supported forums where you could get the advice of other people. Manufacturers win in both cases if they can make a good product that survives the professional review and doesn't fall apart or immediately break so the forums give it a pass. The problem is tracking and dependence on ad networks. Corporations doggedly chasing the bottom line don't want to spend the time or the money to pick and choose specific forums and sites to advertise. They want to pretend to automate that process. Their laziness not only killed the old networks and communities around various product segments, but helped start the "listicle" de-evolution that has decreased content quality across the entire internet. I used to be able to type in "product_name review" and get some useful, well-known sites. Now I get recycled garbage content, and I have to check all of those sites individually or restrict the domain in the search. It's ridiculous.
- codazoda 5y ago
  Your comment reminded me of the old AdSense model where the advertiser (Google in this case) would look at the content of the page the ad was on and decide what ad to display as a result. In a way, this is just like magazine advertising where the seller can pick a publication that they think will cater to buyers. Maybe they can even pick a specific article. Personally, this is the model I long for again. If I’m looking at articles about bike maintenance, I’m getting ads for bike tools and supplies. Instead, I’m getting ads for USB power cords because I just purchased a new one to replace the one my dog chewed.
leobg 5y ago
Apparent that’s how it was in the U.S. before the 20th century. People would buy a few things like molasses in bulk. And that was it. It’s quite hard to imagine. It also sounds quite inefficient. Like everybody running their own wood stove vs using centrally generated electricity. But I don’t know. Anyone aware of books that talk of life in these times? For the early 1900s, I enjoyed “The World of Yesterday”. It would be great to get the same glimpses into the world of the 1800s.
- Inhibit 5y ago
  I had the chance to ruminate about wood burning recently during a conversation. The conclusion I came to was that when there's few people and they're all manually whacking at wood with axes you're (as a group) okay. When the wood collection is essentially strip mining a forest for millions of customers it just isn't the same thing. Not really comparable. Manual labor and using an axe is an efficient system in the sense that it ultimately limits use and production of wood per person.
  - b112 5y ago
    Yup, it's all about population density. At the turn of the century, Canada was >70% rural or some such. Now, it's reversed. >70% urban. When you live on a farm, in the county, and own 100 acres, a few extra acres for wood provides a long supply of wood, with time for more to grow. Every farm tended to have rocky, unusable bits, but still ok for trees. Back then, before everyone had backhoes, removing large rocks, even small rocks, was work. So some fields were best left for trees. And one of your neighbours would likely own 1000 acres or more of bush land, ok for trees, but too rocky or swampy for farming. Or local crown land would be used for harvesting trees. Back when people went in with sleighs in the winter, felled trees by hand with axe and hand saw, no one strip cut. Why would they? (It is easier with horses to pull logs out on sleigh, in winter, than over uneven, soft ground. Especially in frozen swampy land. Even today, people will use snowmobiles and sleigh to get trees out for personal use.) Anyhow back then, it was only people living in higher density locations, away from nature, which exceeded easy supply. Of course, population growth happens, and wood burning can be dirty, so now we warm homes with other methods typically.
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
> letting corporations influence our behavior one of the foundational problems with this sort of analysis is that "corporation" isn't really very well defined for this context. If I live in some imaginary small town 1800's western America, and the owner of the general store convinces me to stock up on something that they happen to have an excess of, is this "corporations influencing our behavior" ? If I live in some imaginary mid-size town in 1950's USA, and the local Ford dealer is on the radio telling me all about how their latest cars are just the absolute best, and this persuades me to get a Ford for my next car, is that "corporations influencing our behavior" ? If anyone says anything to me that changes the behavioral trajectory I might otherwise have been on, how do I know if that's corporations influencing my behavior, or "just what people do" ?
- smus 5y ago
  Huh? In the real world we're currently living in you can probably track 80% of advertising people are exposed to to like 20 fortune 50 companies. Doesn't get more concrete than that
- erikpukinskis 5y ago
  Corporations are headless. A Sole Proprietorship like the one in your example is tied to a single human agent. The Corporation will swap out any human agent who gets out of line. Although this definition, like all definitions, brings to light uncomfortable corner cases… Like, is Facebook a corporation, or a Sole Proprietorship? (I know legally it’s a Corp, but spiritually, is it just Mark Zuckerberg, since he has the controlling stake?)
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    OK, so let's take me as an example. For 21+ years, I've "run" a sole proprietorship (i.e. telling myself what to do). Soon, I may convert this into an LLC for various reasons. It's possible that after that, I might actually hire an employee. At what point along the path from where I am now to being the next FAANG do I become "a corporation" in the sense of the comment under discussion? If I have an LLC and 1 employee, legally I'm certainly a corporation, but this seems to not be what the comment was describing?

by mod 5y ago

nicoffeine 5y ago

I think there was almost a good system in place: a variety of ad-supported sites that professionally reviewed new products, and a variety of ad-supported forums where you could get the advice of other people. Manufacturers win in both cases if they can make a good product that survives the professional review and doesn't fall apart or immediately break so the forums give it a pass. The problem is tracking and dependence on ad networks. Corporations doggedly chasing the bottom line don't want to spend the time or the money to pick and choose specific forums and sites to advertise. They want to pretend to automate that process. Their laziness not only killed the old networks and communities around various product segments, but helped start the "listicle" de-evolution that has decreased content quality across the entire internet. I used to be able to type in "product_name review" and get some useful, well-known sites. Now I get recycled garbage content, and I have to check all of those sites individually or restrict the domain in the search. It's ridiculous.

codazoda 5y ago
Your comment reminded me of the old AdSense model where the advertiser (Google in this case) would look at the content of the page the ad was on and decide what ad to display as a result. In a way, this is just like magazine advertising where the seller can pick a publication that they think will cater to buyers. Maybe they can even pick a specific article. Personally, this is the model I long for again. If I’m looking at articles about bike maintenance, I’m getting ads for bike tools and supplies. Instead, I’m getting ads for USB power cords because I just purchased a new one to replace the one my dog chewed.

leobg 5y ago

Apparent that’s how it was in the U.S. before the 20th century. People would buy a few things like molasses in bulk. And that was it. It’s quite hard to imagine. It also sounds quite inefficient. Like everybody running their own wood stove vs using centrally generated electricity. But I don’t know. Anyone aware of books that talk of life in these times? For the early 1900s, I enjoyed “The World of Yesterday”. It would be great to get the same glimpses into the world of the 1800s.

Inhibit 5y ago
I had the chance to ruminate about wood burning recently during a conversation. The conclusion I came to was that when there's few people and they're all manually whacking at wood with axes you're (as a group) okay. When the wood collection is essentially strip mining a forest for millions of customers it just isn't the same thing. Not really comparable. Manual labor and using an axe is an efficient system in the sense that it ultimately limits use and production of wood per person.
- b112 5y ago
  Yup, it's all about population density. At the turn of the century, Canada was >70% rural or some such. Now, it's reversed. >70% urban. When you live on a farm, in the county, and own 100 acres, a few extra acres for wood provides a long supply of wood, with time for more to grow. Every farm tended to have rocky, unusable bits, but still ok for trees. Back then, before everyone had backhoes, removing large rocks, even small rocks, was work. So some fields were best left for trees. And one of your neighbours would likely own 1000 acres or more of bush land, ok for trees, but too rocky or swampy for farming. Or local crown land would be used for harvesting trees. Back when people went in with sleighs in the winter, felled trees by hand with axe and hand saw, no one strip cut. Why would they? (It is easier with horses to pull logs out on sleigh, in winter, than over uneven, soft ground. Especially in frozen swampy land. Even today, people will use snowmobiles and sleigh to get trees out for personal use.) Anyhow back then, it was only people living in higher density locations, away from nature, which exceeded easy supply. Of course, population growth happens, and wood burning can be dirty, so now we warm homes with other methods typically.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago

> letting corporations influence our behavior one of the foundational problems with this sort of analysis is that "corporation" isn't really very well defined for this context. If I live in some imaginary small town 1800's western America, and the owner of the general store convinces me to stock up on something that they happen to have an excess of, is this "corporations influencing our behavior" ? If I live in some imaginary mid-size town in 1950's USA, and the local Ford dealer is on the radio telling me all about how their latest cars are just the absolute best, and this persuades me to get a Ford for my next car, is that "corporations influencing our behavior" ? If anyone says anything to me that changes the behavioral trajectory I might otherwise have been on, how do I know if that's corporations influencing my behavior, or "just what people do" ?

smus 5y ago
Huh? In the real world we're currently living in you can probably track 80% of advertising people are exposed to to like 20 fortune 50 companies. Doesn't get more concrete than that
erikpukinskis 5y ago
Corporations are headless. A Sole Proprietorship like the one in your example is tied to a single human agent. The Corporation will swap out any human agent who gets out of line. Although this definition, like all definitions, brings to light uncomfortable corner cases… Like, is Facebook a corporation, or a Sole Proprietorship? (I know legally it’s a Corp, but spiritually, is it just Mark Zuckerberg, since he has the controlling stake?)
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  OK, so let's take me as an example. For 21+ years, I've "run" a sole proprietorship (i.e. telling myself what to do). Soon, I may convert this into an LLC for various reasons. It's possible that after that, I might actually hire an employee. At what point along the path from where I am now to being the next FAANG do I become "a corporation" in the sense of the comment under discussion? If I have an LLC and 1 employee, legally I'm certainly a corporation, but this seems to not be what the comment was describing?