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I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. I've been using various unices for about 20 years now, ranging from Slackware Linu

by aspyct 5y ago

I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. I've been using various unices for about 20 years now, ranging from Slackware Linux to OpenSolaris to FreeBSD to Kubuntu. I gave openbsd a try a few years back, and found it utterly complicated to setup and use. And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm". No joke, one of the guys said "Grey Unix beards are formed in suffering". Granted, a lot of stuff is in the documentation. But also a lot of stuff isn't. Your edge case from laptop X isn't documented, and you're still considered an idiot if you can't solve it. Even the title of this article reflects that mindset.

Arnavion 5y ago
So when you were told to RTFM, did you find the answer in the manual? If you didn't, did you tell them, and how did they respond? I don't have any experience with OpenBSD or its community, but I'm in several (Linux-related) communities that would also tell you to RTFM if you were to ask a question that we expect is answered in the FM. And we would be happy to be corrected if you came back and told us it wasn't there, or even better if you told us when you initially asked your question that you did read such-and-such parts of the FM and did not find the answer. You could even become the one to update the manual to add the missing info for the next soul who has the same problem. Basically what I'm getting at is that lots of small communities don't have the resources or inclination to answer the same questions over and over again. Yes the response may not be polite, and if that puts you off of using the software then so be it, but some level of self-help and doing-your-homework is expected before asking questions.
- aspyct 5y ago
  You didn't read my whole comment, did you? I said "edge cases for laptop X". Of course I read the FM. Of course I did my homework before asking question. But that's it, right there: just considering that, by default, newcomers are incapable of reading the documentation. You just did it.
  - Arnavion 5y ago
    >But that's it, right there: just considering that, by default, newcomers are incapable of reading the documentation. You just did it. My comment did not make this assertion. I did read your whole comment, but I don't think you read mine.
Bancakes 5y ago
Professional programmers should be used to prodding their brains and RTFM. It's a question of ethics not to thought-dilute openBSD.
foxfluff 5y ago
That doesn't really match my experience. When I read the docs and don't find what I want, I've gotten useful help from the community. Either they help me or they point me to the piece of documentation that I somehow missed. Granted I didn't actually ever need to ask for much help because OpenBSD was so utterly simple to set up.
temprature 5y ago
Do you have examples of what in OpenBSD you found "utterly complicated to setup and use"? I've been using for several years now because of how devoid of complexity it is and because of how comprehensive the documentation is. Trying to even install other Unices nowadays frustrates me to no end because they're more complicated than "just keep pressing enter".
- implements 5y ago
  The first time I installed OpenBSD I didn't know what to enter as "host name", nor that I needed to make a hosts file entry for whatever I chose. Another example might be when startx stopped working for non-root users - a "change / why / what to do now" explanation would have been handy. But OpenBSD isn't aimed at Unix newbies so it's entirely understandable why that level of hand-holding doesn't exist.
  - mrweasel 5y ago
    Non of those things are OpenBSD specific, though I’m not sure what the hosts file thing is about.
- aspyct 5y ago
  Well, for one thing, setting up FDE was way harder that it should probably be for "the most secure os on the planet". Also, I installed Kubuntu the other day, and I just kept pressing enter. There was even a checkbox for FDE.
  - messe 5y ago
    Really? It's just a few commands away, all of which are completely transparent and documented in the FAQ: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#softraidFDE https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#softraidFDE Granted it could probably be added to the installer, but that's hardly "Utterly complicated to setup".
    - mrweasel 5y ago
daneel_w 5y ago
I think you're overreacting and exaggerating, both regarding OpenBSD being complicated to set up and about the community being toxic. Yes, a certain few people on the official mailing lists can be a bit vocal and stingy, and that also goes for one or two asocial a**holes on the inofficial IRC channel (#openbsd/libera), but these people are few and by no means representative of the community. For the absolute majority of occasions, people seeking help on these two venues are met with generous and thorough reciprocation. If you've used unices for 20 years, and in particular if you've installed the Slackware of old, I cannot imagine why you would feel OpenBSD is complicated to set up. It's technically the neatest, tidiest and least convoluted of the UNIX-likes out there, coupled with the best documentation available. Could it be that you approached it as if it were a "Linux-like"? I see this regularly with new users asking for help in #openbsd/libera, trying OpenBSD out with a bit of Linux in their backpack resulting in some common and entirely logical misconceptions.
- aspyct 5y ago
  > I cannot imagine why you would feel OpenBSD is complicated to set up. Maybe the fact that there are so many manual steps to have a usable, "production grade", setup? Sure, you just have to follow documentation, but you're in for hours of work and learning tons of concepts before having anything secure if it's the first time. Also, if you make a single mistake along the way, all the help you'll get is a "Yeah, you did something wrong. RTFM". That certainly isn't the definition of simple to me.
  - messe 5y ago
    What were you trying to do?
  - daneel_w 5y ago
    Hmm, no, I really have to disagree here. And you need to proceed with the same configuring of for example an httpd on the Linuxes as well after installing the software. These simply are not graphical "click'n'play" environments like IIS on Windows.
  - mrweasel 5y ago
anthk 5y ago
OpenBSD and Slackware user there. OpenBSD it's far easier to setup than any Linux distro like Slackware or a netinstall Debian. >And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm" You don't get a "man afterboot" advice for nothing.
PhantomGremlin 5y ago
the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots Even the title of this article reflects that mindset There's cultural history about that very phrase. There was a series of books written with that exact title. They were intended to "provide a basic understanding of a complex and popular topics. The term 'idiot' is used as hyperbole". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Idiot%27s_Guides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Idiot%27s_Guides Edit: I want to add that apparently the author put a lot of effort into writing a fairly comprehensive document. It will probably be quite helpful for someone attempting that install. The document shouldn't be dismissed just because of the title.
- aspyct 5y ago
  Indeed, and it seems to be a nice write-up, not dismissing that. Kudos to the author.
nulbyte 5y ago
> I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. "The complete idiot's guide" is a well-known series of books that cover a variety of topics for beginners; the title is a play on that. It's not an insult.
- aspyct 5y ago
  Author could have chosen any title. He chose this one. I wonder why. Nice write-up though, kudos to him.
  - protomyth 5y ago
    I would imagine that the author had the same feeling as a lot of us who have written and researched complex documentation that you feel like an idiot for all the missteps and detours taken to find the correct path. There is always a joy in the completion but damn you wish you had been smarter and more knowledgeable in the middle.
  - daneel_w 5y ago
    Certainly not to offend people. It also helps if one isn't actively looking for things to feel offended over.
- ospzfmbbzr 5y ago
  Never liked that branding for idiots. I've used OpenBSD since 2000. I own a PinebookPro. The tired and lame title makes me think the author is a joke (right or wrong) and I end up not wanting to bother giving this a try.
  - rubyist5eva 5y ago
    Maybe try not being so easily offended? It is just a figure of speech after all (and a rather common one).
    - ospzfmbbzr 5y ago
      It's about branding you Idiot. Read the comment.
messe 5y ago
> Granted, a lot of stuff is in the documentation. But also a lot of stuff isn't. Your edge case from laptop X isn't documented, and you're still considered an idiot if you can't solve it. In my experience that's not what the OpenBSD mailing lists are like. Most people will go out of their way to help, but it's also expected that you do your own due diligence first. It's not a commercial project, and not every combination of hardware is going to work perfectly, or is going to be documented. > Even the title of this article reflects that mindset. I think you're reading too much into it, and really stretching it for that interpretation. You've gone in with a negative opinion of the OpenBSD community, which I think is an undeserved one, and are viewing it through that lens.
carapace 5y ago
From the POV of most of the folks working on OpenBSD most people are idiots. It's sounds like snark, but I'm trying to make a point here. There are umpteen OS for beginners (Ubuntu, TinyCore) or power users (Arch, most of the others) but OpenBSD is mostly for OpenBSD developers. They have been dealing with "idiots" who don't get that for years and years now, and part of their attitude is (IMO) just a heuristic for keeping out the riffraff.
hedora 5y ago
I like OpenBSD because it doesn't treat the user like an idiot, and the documentation is excellent. Also, the developers assume that they, themselves are idiots that can't maintain complex software, so they rip out as much unnecessary complexity as possible. Sorry you had a bad experience with someone.
prmoustache 5y ago
>I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. Nobody called anyone an idiot. You just missed the direct and obvious reference to the "Complete idiot guides to" series of books which are themselves a reference of the "for dummies" books.

by aspyct 5y ago

Arnavion 5y ago

So when you were told to RTFM, did you find the answer in the manual? If you didn't, did you tell them, and how did they respond? I don't have any experience with OpenBSD or its community, but I'm in several (Linux-related) communities that would also tell you to RTFM if you were to ask a question that we expect is answered in the FM. And we would be happy to be corrected if you came back and told us it wasn't there, or even better if you told us when you initially asked your question that you did read such-and-such parts of the FM and did not find the answer. You could even become the one to update the manual to add the missing info for the next soul who has the same problem. Basically what I'm getting at is that lots of small communities don't have the resources or inclination to answer the same questions over and over again. Yes the response may not be polite, and if that puts you off of using the software then so be it, but some level of self-help and doing-your-homework is expected before asking questions.

aspyct 5y ago
You didn't read my whole comment, did you? I said "edge cases for laptop X". Of course I read the FM. Of course I did my homework before asking question. But that's it, right there: just considering that, by default, newcomers are incapable of reading the documentation. You just did it.
- Arnavion 5y ago
  >But that's it, right there: just considering that, by default, newcomers are incapable of reading the documentation. You just did it. My comment did not make this assertion. I did read your whole comment, but I don't think you read mine.

Bancakes 5y ago

Professional programmers should be used to prodding their brains and RTFM. It's a question of ethics not to thought-dilute openBSD.

foxfluff 5y ago

That doesn't really match my experience. When I read the docs and don't find what I want, I've gotten useful help from the community. Either they help me or they point me to the piece of documentation that I somehow missed. Granted I didn't actually ever need to ask for much help because OpenBSD was so utterly simple to set up.

temprature 5y ago

Do you have examples of what in OpenBSD you found "utterly complicated to setup and use"? I've been using for several years now because of how devoid of complexity it is and because of how comprehensive the documentation is. Trying to even install other Unices nowadays frustrates me to no end because they're more complicated than "just keep pressing enter".

implements 5y ago
The first time I installed OpenBSD I didn't know what to enter as "host name", nor that I needed to make a hosts file entry for whatever I chose. Another example might be when startx stopped working for non-root users - a "change / why / what to do now" explanation would have been handy. But OpenBSD isn't aimed at Unix newbies so it's entirely understandable why that level of hand-holding doesn't exist.
- mrweasel 5y ago
  Non of those things are OpenBSD specific, though I’m not sure what the hosts file thing is about.
aspyct 5y ago
Well, for one thing, setting up FDE was way harder that it should probably be for "the most secure os on the planet". Also, I installed Kubuntu the other day, and I just kept pressing enter. There was even a checkbox for FDE.
- messe 5y ago
  Really? It's just a few commands away, all of which are completely transparent and documented in the FAQ: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#softraidFDE https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#softraidFDE Granted it could probably be added to the installer, but that's hardly "Utterly complicated to setup".
  - mrweasel 5y ago

daneel_w 5y ago

I think you're overreacting and exaggerating, both regarding OpenBSD being complicated to set up and about the community being toxic. Yes, a certain few people on the official mailing lists can be a bit vocal and stingy, and that also goes for one or two asocial a**holes on the inofficial IRC channel (#openbsd/libera), but these people are few and by no means representative of the community. For the absolute majority of occasions, people seeking help on these two venues are met with generous and thorough reciprocation. If you've used unices for 20 years, and in particular if you've installed the Slackware of old, I cannot imagine why you would feel OpenBSD is complicated to set up. It's technically the neatest, tidiest and least convoluted of the UNIX-likes out there, coupled with the best documentation available. Could it be that you approached it as if it were a "Linux-like"? I see this regularly with new users asking for help in #openbsd/libera, trying OpenBSD out with a bit of Linux in their backpack resulting in some common and entirely logical misconceptions.

aspyct 5y ago
> I cannot imagine why you would feel OpenBSD is complicated to set up. Maybe the fact that there are so many manual steps to have a usable, "production grade", setup? Sure, you just have to follow documentation, but you're in for hours of work and learning tons of concepts before having anything secure if it's the first time. Also, if you make a single mistake along the way, all the help you'll get is a "Yeah, you did something wrong. RTFM". That certainly isn't the definition of simple to me.
- messe 5y ago
  What were you trying to do?
- daneel_w 5y ago
  Hmm, no, I really have to disagree here. And you need to proceed with the same configuring of for example an httpd on the Linuxes as well after installing the software. These simply are not graphical "click'n'play" environments like IIS on Windows.
- mrweasel 5y ago

anthk 5y ago

OpenBSD and Slackware user there. OpenBSD it's far easier to setup than any Linux distro like Slackware or a netinstall Debian. >And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm" You don't get a "man afterboot" advice for nothing.

PhantomGremlin 5y ago

the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots Even the title of this article reflects that mindset There's cultural history about that very phrase. There was a series of books written with that exact title. They were intended to "provide a basic understanding of a complex and popular topics. The term 'idiot' is used as hyperbole". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Idiot%27s_Guides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Idiot%27s_Guides Edit: I want to add that apparently the author put a lot of effort into writing a fairly comprehensive document. It will probably be quite helpful for someone attempting that install. The document shouldn't be dismissed just because of the title.

aspyct 5y ago
Indeed, and it seems to be a nice write-up, not dismissing that. Kudos to the author.

nulbyte 5y ago

> I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. "The complete idiot's guide" is a well-known series of books that cover a variety of topics for beginners; the title is a play on that. It's not an insult.

aspyct 5y ago
Author could have chosen any title. He chose this one. I wonder why. Nice write-up though, kudos to him.
- protomyth 5y ago
  I would imagine that the author had the same feeling as a lot of us who have written and researched complex documentation that you feel like an idiot for all the missteps and detours taken to find the correct path. There is always a joy in the completion but damn you wish you had been smarter and more knowledgeable in the middle.
- daneel_w 5y ago
  Certainly not to offend people. It also helps if one isn't actively looking for things to feel offended over.
ospzfmbbzr 5y ago
Never liked that branding for idiots. I've used OpenBSD since 2000. I own a PinebookPro. The tired and lame title makes me think the author is a joke (right or wrong) and I end up not wanting to bother giving this a try.
- rubyist5eva 5y ago
  Maybe try not being so easily offended? It is just a figure of speech after all (and a rather common one).
  - ospzfmbbzr 5y ago
    It's about branding you Idiot. Read the comment.

messe 5y ago

> Granted, a lot of stuff is in the documentation. But also a lot of stuff isn't. Your edge case from laptop X isn't documented, and you're still considered an idiot if you can't solve it. In my experience that's not what the OpenBSD mailing lists are like. Most people will go out of their way to help, but it's also expected that you do your own due diligence first. It's not a commercial project, and not every combination of hardware is going to work perfectly, or is going to be documented. > Even the title of this article reflects that mindset. I think you're reading too much into it, and really stretching it for that interpretation. You've gone in with a negative opinion of the OpenBSD community, which I think is an undeserved one, and are viewing it through that lens.

carapace 5y ago

From the POV of most of the folks working on OpenBSD most people are idiots. It's sounds like snark, but I'm trying to make a point here. There are umpteen OS for beginners (Ubuntu, TinyCore) or power users (Arch, most of the others) but OpenBSD is mostly for OpenBSD developers. They have been dealing with "idiots" who don't get that for years and years now, and part of their attitude is (IMO) just a heuristic for keeping out the riffraff.

hedora 5y ago

I like OpenBSD because it doesn't treat the user like an idiot, and the documentation is excellent. Also, the developers assume that they, themselves are idiots that can't maintain complex software, so they rip out as much unnecessary complexity as possible. Sorry you had a bad experience with someone.

prmoustache 5y ago

>I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. Nobody called anyone an idiot. You just missed the direct and obvious reference to the "Complete idiot guides to" series of books which are themselves a reference of the "for dummies" books.