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One does wonder... At what point do Americans decide to get along well enough to force action on this? Maybe when enough of us have been harmed? Might be wha

One does wonder... At what point do Americans decide to get along well enough to force action on this? Maybe when enough of us have been harmed? Might be what it takes. Frankly, I would not expect or be willing to pay anything for a sacrifice of that kind. Asking for the money? Morbid, and another thing I would bot be capable of doing.

pydry 5y ago
>At what point do Americans decide to get along well enough to force action on this? When the cost to the ruling oligarchy of not providing it becomes too high to bear. Not only is the cost not high enough, there's little incentive for them to not squeeze a little harder.
- sascha_sl 5y ago
  The push for UBI including the ultra-wealthy should give you a hint what happens if we ever do get close to reaching critical mass to force action. We're extended an olive branch. But then again, US media are experts at manufacturing consent, so I doubt we'll even get that.
  - pydry 5y ago
    >The push for UBI There is no real push for UBI. It's a pipe dream dangled in front of us by oligarchs who are trying to feed hunger for change. It'd be nice if it happened but realistically if it grew into a realm of political possibility the same institutions touting it now as "some cool thing to do in the far future maybe" would furiously backtrack. The deeply embedded protestant work ethic and inflation fears would both be stoked to kill it dead.
    - sascha_sl 5y ago
      I'm not exclusively talking about the US here.
    - racnid 5y ago
      Are you talking about the actual inflation that just happened when we tried our mini-UBI experiment like several months ago? Those inflation fears?
    - ashwagary 5y ago
      UBI for the rich (aka QE) has existed for ~10 years and they love this kind of socialism. It's just the poor people that need to pull themselves up by bootstraps unassisted.
nindalf 5y ago
> Maybe when enough of us have been harmed? The more harm is done, the less likely that people will support a public option. After paying ruinous bills, they would resent now paying increased taxes for “other peoples’ bills”. Why should I help others when no one was around to help me when I needed it? The more polarised society gets, the less likely that any person feels they should help “freeloaders” in that society. This is a bit handwavey, but people support a large public safety net in societies that where many have already benefited from that safety net and the society is somewhat homogenous. (I live in a society with socialised healthcare, so this doesn’t apply to me. I don’t espouse these views personally.)
- sueders101 5y ago
  > The more harm is done, the less likely that people will support a public option. I don't think that is the case most of the time. If anything, suffering makes people more likely to be sympathetic. For instance: people with low incomes, and those without private healthcare are more likely to support socialized healthcare in the United States.[1] These are the people most likely to have been stuck with ruinous healthcare bills. [1] PDF Warning : https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/100752/what_explains_support_or_opposition_to_medicare_for_all_final_v2.pdf https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/100752...
- pydry 5y ago
  Even a majority of Republicans support single payer. Something like 70% of all Americans support it. This situation didnt come about as a result of democracy. This $13,000 bill is a physical manifestation of where democracy and American parasitic oligarchy clash.
  - scotty79 5y ago
    It doesn't matter. As long as you don't have a support of the rich nothing gets done in this country.
    - ddingus 5y ago
killingtime74 5y ago
Americans don’t mind being poor as long as someone else is poorer
- hulitu 5y ago
  So, can we have your liver then ?
- bequanna 5y ago
  Americans are poor compared to who? Europeans? Funny how when I encounter (mostly upper middle class) Europeans that have been to the US almost all of them mention being blown away by our high quality of life. But what about our “poor”? The US has significant social safety nets which provide free housing, food, healthcare, cell phones, internet, etc. Given our non homogenous population, percentage of non-productive people, and diverse, expansive geography I would say our system is doing one hell of a good job for our citizens. But yea, sure. Keep pushing the cool kid woke narrative of: “America poor, America bad”.
  - pipodeclown 5y ago
    Maybe if you define quality of life very narrowly as material possession (in a very superficial sense) than yes, maybe? Sure, the average American drives a bigger car and lives in a bigger house than the average European, but I believe that's more a function of geography and population density than indicative of quality of life. In my personal experience when visiting the US, I'm more blown away by the apparent rampant homelessness problem in big cities, the inhosipitablesness of roads for anything but a car, parts of big cities being practical ghettos. When I travel the world, I hardly ever meet any Americans except for the old and retired that are finally able to travel the world, most likely resulting from a generally anti lesuire work culture. Sure, there are many great things about the US and if you're part of the middle class, your reletively wealthy, I wouldn't equate that with quality of life though
    - bequanna 5y ago
      We could bicker about what “quality of life” means but if we define it as: “the most people have the most opportunities to live the life they want” good luck finding that being done at scale anywhere other than the US. I really don’t see how you can compare the incredible success of that system to some homogenous euro country with 5% or the population of the US who considers bike lanes to be some great achievement for mankind. More homeless? Maybe. But it isn’t due to lack of effort on our part. The incredibly generous social safety nets exist. We can’t force people to take advantage of that. Remember that we’re not just trying to get one or two cultures to live together productively. We are successfully organizing all the cultures under one system. Feel free to point out the gaps, I would expect no less. We will just keep on achieving and building the future. Doing it all while also paying for the military power that keeps the western world safe. Compared to US cities, European countries feel old. Dead. Antique relics occupied by museum keepers who’s pastime is pontificating about “social justice”. Prioritizing morality only so they can maintain some small feeling of superiority because the rest of the world has left them behind.

pydry 5y ago

>At what point do Americans decide to get along well enough to force action on this? When the cost to the ruling oligarchy of not providing it becomes too high to bear. Not only is the cost not high enough, there's little incentive for them to not squeeze a little harder.

sascha_sl 5y ago
The push for UBI including the ultra-wealthy should give you a hint what happens if we ever do get close to reaching critical mass to force action. We're extended an olive branch. But then again, US media are experts at manufacturing consent, so I doubt we'll even get that.
- pydry 5y ago
  >The push for UBI There is no real push for UBI. It's a pipe dream dangled in front of us by oligarchs who are trying to feed hunger for change. It'd be nice if it happened but realistically if it grew into a realm of political possibility the same institutions touting it now as "some cool thing to do in the far future maybe" would furiously backtrack. The deeply embedded protestant work ethic and inflation fears would both be stoked to kill it dead.
  - sascha_sl 5y ago
    I'm not exclusively talking about the US here.
  - racnid 5y ago
    Are you talking about the actual inflation that just happened when we tried our mini-UBI experiment like several months ago? Those inflation fears?
  - ashwagary 5y ago
    UBI for the rich (aka QE) has existed for ~10 years and they love this kind of socialism. It's just the poor people that need to pull themselves up by bootstraps unassisted.

nindalf 5y ago

> Maybe when enough of us have been harmed? The more harm is done, the less likely that people will support a public option. After paying ruinous bills, they would resent now paying increased taxes for “other peoples’ bills”. Why should I help others when no one was around to help me when I needed it? The more polarised society gets, the less likely that any person feels they should help “freeloaders” in that society. This is a bit handwavey, but people support a large public safety net in societies that where many have already benefited from that safety net and the society is somewhat homogenous. (I live in a society with socialised healthcare, so this doesn’t apply to me. I don’t espouse these views personally.)

sueders101 5y ago
> The more harm is done, the less likely that people will support a public option. I don't think that is the case most of the time. If anything, suffering makes people more likely to be sympathetic. For instance: people with low incomes, and those without private healthcare are more likely to support socialized healthcare in the United States.[1] These are the people most likely to have been stuck with ruinous healthcare bills. [1] PDF Warning : https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/100752/what_explains_support_or_opposition_to_medicare_for_all_final_v2.pdf https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/100752...
pydry 5y ago
Even a majority of Republicans support single payer. Something like 70% of all Americans support it. This situation didnt come about as a result of democracy. This $13,000 bill is a physical manifestation of where democracy and American parasitic oligarchy clash.
- scotty79 5y ago
  It doesn't matter. As long as you don't have a support of the rich nothing gets done in this country.
  - ddingus 5y ago

killingtime74 5y ago

Americans don’t mind being poor as long as someone else is poorer

hulitu 5y ago
So, can we have your liver then ?
bequanna 5y ago
Americans are poor compared to who? Europeans? Funny how when I encounter (mostly upper middle class) Europeans that have been to the US almost all of them mention being blown away by our high quality of life. But what about our “poor”? The US has significant social safety nets which provide free housing, food, healthcare, cell phones, internet, etc. Given our non homogenous population, percentage of non-productive people, and diverse, expansive geography I would say our system is doing one hell of a good job for our citizens. But yea, sure. Keep pushing the cool kid woke narrative of: “America poor, America bad”.
- pipodeclown 5y ago
  Maybe if you define quality of life very narrowly as material possession (in a very superficial sense) than yes, maybe? Sure, the average American drives a bigger car and lives in a bigger house than the average European, but I believe that's more a function of geography and population density than indicative of quality of life. In my personal experience when visiting the US, I'm more blown away by the apparent rampant homelessness problem in big cities, the inhosipitablesness of roads for anything but a car, parts of big cities being practical ghettos. When I travel the world, I hardly ever meet any Americans except for the old and retired that are finally able to travel the world, most likely resulting from a generally anti lesuire work culture. Sure, there are many great things about the US and if you're part of the middle class, your reletively wealthy, I wouldn't equate that with quality of life though
  - bequanna 5y ago
    We could bicker about what “quality of life” means but if we define it as: “the most people have the most opportunities to live the life they want” good luck finding that being done at scale anywhere other than the US. I really don’t see how you can compare the incredible success of that system to some homogenous euro country with 5% or the population of the US who considers bike lanes to be some great achievement for mankind. More homeless? Maybe. But it isn’t due to lack of effort on our part. The incredibly generous social safety nets exist. We can’t force people to take advantage of that. Remember that we’re not just trying to get one or two cultures to live together productively. We are successfully organizing all the cultures under one system. Feel free to point out the gaps, I would expect no less. We will just keep on achieving and building the future. Doing it all while also paying for the military power that keeps the western world safe. Compared to US cities, European countries feel old. Dead. Antique relics occupied by museum keepers who’s pastime is pontificating about “social justice”. Prioritizing morality only so they can maintain some small feeling of superiority because the rest of the world has left them behind.