6 ms·

In Germany this isn't a legal move. One of my former employees (global telco everyone knows) tried to do the same, namely moving the contracts of the employees

In Germany this isn't a legal move. One of my former employees (global telco everyone knows) tried to do the same, namely moving the contracts of the employees to an other company. 200 of them started a class action and won easily. The company had to terminate their contracts (which means the employees are eligible for unemployment benefits, etc.) and had to pay a good severance. Something like (years of employment) * 2 monthly salaries. Some of the employees took the money and went into early retirement.

charcircuit 5y ago
Why is it illegal to fire people in Germany?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- NumberCruncher 5y ago
  I did not say, that is illegal to fire people in Germany. Nonetheless as an employer you have to obey the laws making firing cumbersome. Laws, not made by slave drivers...
  - GhostVII 5y ago
    In the US this would probably be constructive dismissal, so similar to what would happen in Germany. And referring to slavery when talking about the current US laws seems somewhat irrelevant
- em500 5y ago
  It's not illegal to fire people in Germany. But just like most of Europe they need to provide some "just cause [1]", unlike in the US where there are a lot more "at-will [2]" employment contracts. Left wing economist believe this is a great feature that makes lives much better for employees. Right wing economists believes this a bad feature that only protects incumbent employees and makes employers less inclined to hire in the first place or waste resources on workarounds like temp-agencies. Neither standpoints can be conclusively proven, so is mostly a matter of ideology. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_cause_(employment_law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_cause_(employment_law) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
  - soco 5y ago
    I guess it could be helpful to check some comparison indices - economy, satisfaction, life quality...
    - V__ 5y ago
      I mean, one could... but we all know reality has this pesky leftist bias. So what's the point? /s
- oblio 5y ago
  Because they're not firing. They're jerks, trying to force them out by moving them to a crap subsidiary without benefits, maybe forced relocation to another country (!), etc. Firing people means paying severance. They want to avoid doing that and for obvious reasons in many countries that's illegal. I guess they figured possible lawsuits are cheaper.
  - soco 5y ago
    I cannot imagine a lawsuit could be cheaper - if they lose (and might very well) they'll be forced to pay the due severance and fees and penalties. But until then...
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    In Germany, there needs to be a work agreement in place for mass movement like this, signed by employees and union. Unfortunely for the Dutch employees that doesn't seem to be the case in Netherlands.
  - Wiseacre 5y ago
    It sounds like you are confusing being fired with being laid off.
    - oblio 5y ago
      Maybe I am. What's the difference and how does it apply to what I'm saying?
      - Wiseacre 5y ago
        Because when you are laying people off and giving them a severance, you are taking more care of them than you would be if you were firing them. That's the entire basis of this comment thread.
        oblio 5y ago
        Most of the employees in this announcement are in Europe, where there is no "firing" (i.e. at-will employment aka employer abuse). There's only laying off with a severance and firing for cause, where firing for cause is by design <<super>> hard to do. And it's definitely not something that can be done to masses of people at once without all the government authorities coming to pay the offending company a visit ASAP. > That's the entire basis of this comment thread. Not if you figure out the entire context of this event.
- kuu 5y ago
  The thing is that in many countries of Europe (an maybe somewhere else too) we consider that a company is not only a way for the owners to make money, but they have a social value and responsibility. Therefore you cannot just fire 200 people to hire another 200 cheaper, because that's a way to increase only company's profit but not society benefit. And if you fire them, you need to compensate them properly. Of course companies try to go around these regulations, it's up to each Government how to enforce laws to prevent it.
  - GhostVII 5y ago
    So it sounds like in Germany, you can fire people to hire another 200 cheaper, you just have to compensate them for that firing. Just like in the US if you fire someone without cause, they get unemployment payments funded by their previous employers unemployment insurance (which goes up the more people they fire). And this isn't even relevant to what is happening with Booking.com. No one is being explicitly fired, they are being moved to a new company with different job requirements. Which as far as I understand, is constrictive dismissal, so the right thing in this case is for Booking.com to give all their employees the option of being laid off instead.
    - ensignavenger 5y ago
      Constructive dismissal laws vary by state- but generally, if the compensation and job duties remain substantially the same, it won't be constructive dismissal in the US. The post alludes to the possibility that the new company will make changes after 6 months... if they substantially reduce compensation at that time or substantially change the nature of the job, their us employees would probably qualify for unemployment. Notably, the Reddit poster is from France, so this sin't a "US vs Europe" thing as some other comentors are trying to make it out. Also, looking at https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/social-security/unemployment-benefits-germany-arbeitslosengeld https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/social-security/unemploym..., seems unemployment in Germany is similiar, but in some situations less than in the US- though it can also, in some situations, last longer.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      That is not legal in Germany, because that requires a new contract, which you can refuse to accept and have to be compensated for. Meaning, it does happen, but it requires the workers and union to accept it actually takes place, the company cannot just decide on their own that they will do it and that is it.
- folbec 5y ago
  ... something something like "civilized country not tainted by the historical legacy of large scale chattel slavery" American labor laws are inhuman.
- pfortuny 5y ago
  It is not illegal, it comes with strings attached because in general, in the EU the employee is seen as being the weak side of a contract, and is protected (to a point) against arbitrariness from the strong side.
- hogrider 5y ago
  The ruling was they had to be fired. They tried to convert them to outsourced employees workibg for anoyher company, that's just olain exploitation since they do this to psy you less and save costs.
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
The Netherlands has liberalized worker rights to the point it would make Elon Musk cry. This place is a weird mix of Marxism and laissez-faire capitalism.
- sundache 5y ago
  They CS people in Amsterdam aren't getting fired though.
  - Beltalowda 5y ago
    And aside from that, you can't just transfer employment contracts to random third companies in the Netherlands either.
- BLanen 5y ago
  There is nothing Marxist about The Netherlands. Maybe if you actually read some stuff, you'd know this.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  The Netherlands is complying with a European Directive: 2001/23/EC. In the UK, that directive is embodied in the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) 2006 (TUPE) regulations. Basically, the directive prevents businesses sidestepping laws and contracts that protect employees' rights by transferring those employees to another organisation. Seems reasonable to me (if you share my view that employees have rights).

charcircuit 5y ago

Why is it illegal to fire people in Germany?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
NumberCruncher 5y ago
I did not say, that is illegal to fire people in Germany. Nonetheless as an employer you have to obey the laws making firing cumbersome. Laws, not made by slave drivers...
- GhostVII 5y ago
  In the US this would probably be constructive dismissal, so similar to what would happen in Germany. And referring to slavery when talking about the current US laws seems somewhat irrelevant
em500 5y ago
It's not illegal to fire people in Germany. But just like most of Europe they need to provide some "just cause [1]", unlike in the US where there are a lot more "at-will [2]" employment contracts. Left wing economist believe this is a great feature that makes lives much better for employees. Right wing economists believes this a bad feature that only protects incumbent employees and makes employers less inclined to hire in the first place or waste resources on workarounds like temp-agencies. Neither standpoints can be conclusively proven, so is mostly a matter of ideology. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_cause_(employment_law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_cause_(employment_law) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
- soco 5y ago
  I guess it could be helpful to check some comparison indices - economy, satisfaction, life quality...
  - V__ 5y ago
    I mean, one could... but we all know reality has this pesky leftist bias. So what's the point? /s
oblio 5y ago
Because they're not firing. They're jerks, trying to force them out by moving them to a crap subsidiary without benefits, maybe forced relocation to another country (!), etc. Firing people means paying severance. They want to avoid doing that and for obvious reasons in many countries that's illegal. I guess they figured possible lawsuits are cheaper.
- soco 5y ago
  I cannot imagine a lawsuit could be cheaper - if they lose (and might very well) they'll be forced to pay the due severance and fees and penalties. But until then...
- pjmlp 5y ago
  In Germany, there needs to be a work agreement in place for mass movement like this, signed by employees and union. Unfortunely for the Dutch employees that doesn't seem to be the case in Netherlands.
- Wiseacre 5y ago
  It sounds like you are confusing being fired with being laid off.
  - oblio 5y ago
    Maybe I am. What's the difference and how does it apply to what I'm saying?
    - Wiseacre 5y ago
      Because when you are laying people off and giving them a severance, you are taking more care of them than you would be if you were firing them. That's the entire basis of this comment thread.
      - oblio 5y ago
        Most of the employees in this announcement are in Europe, where there is no "firing" (i.e. at-will employment aka employer abuse). There's only laying off with a severance and firing for cause, where firing for cause is by design <<super>> hard to do. And it's definitely not something that can be done to masses of people at once without all the government authorities coming to pay the offending company a visit ASAP. > That's the entire basis of this comment thread. Not if you figure out the entire context of this event.
kuu 5y ago
The thing is that in many countries of Europe (an maybe somewhere else too) we consider that a company is not only a way for the owners to make money, but they have a social value and responsibility. Therefore you cannot just fire 200 people to hire another 200 cheaper, because that's a way to increase only company's profit but not society benefit. And if you fire them, you need to compensate them properly. Of course companies try to go around these regulations, it's up to each Government how to enforce laws to prevent it.
- GhostVII 5y ago
  So it sounds like in Germany, you can fire people to hire another 200 cheaper, you just have to compensate them for that firing. Just like in the US if you fire someone without cause, they get unemployment payments funded by their previous employers unemployment insurance (which goes up the more people they fire). And this isn't even relevant to what is happening with Booking.com. No one is being explicitly fired, they are being moved to a new company with different job requirements. Which as far as I understand, is constrictive dismissal, so the right thing in this case is for Booking.com to give all their employees the option of being laid off instead.
  - ensignavenger 5y ago
    Constructive dismissal laws vary by state- but generally, if the compensation and job duties remain substantially the same, it won't be constructive dismissal in the US. The post alludes to the possibility that the new company will make changes after 6 months... if they substantially reduce compensation at that time or substantially change the nature of the job, their us employees would probably qualify for unemployment. Notably, the Reddit poster is from France, so this sin't a "US vs Europe" thing as some other comentors are trying to make it out. Also, looking at https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/social-security/unemployment-benefits-germany-arbeitslosengeld https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/social-security/unemploym..., seems unemployment in Germany is similiar, but in some situations less than in the US- though it can also, in some situations, last longer.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    That is not legal in Germany, because that requires a new contract, which you can refuse to accept and have to be compensated for. Meaning, it does happen, but it requires the workers and union to accept it actually takes place, the company cannot just decide on their own that they will do it and that is it.
folbec 5y ago
... something something like "civilized country not tainted by the historical legacy of large scale chattel slavery" American labor laws are inhuman.
pfortuny 5y ago
It is not illegal, it comes with strings attached because in general, in the EU the employee is seen as being the weak side of a contract, and is protected (to a point) against arbitrariness from the strong side.
hogrider 5y ago
The ruling was they had to be fired. They tried to convert them to outsourced employees workibg for anoyher company, that's just olain exploitation since they do this to psy you less and save costs.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

The Netherlands has liberalized worker rights to the point it would make Elon Musk cry. This place is a weird mix of Marxism and laissez-faire capitalism.

sundache 5y ago
They CS people in Amsterdam aren't getting fired though.
- Beltalowda 5y ago
  And aside from that, you can't just transfer employment contracts to random third companies in the Netherlands either.
BLanen 5y ago
There is nothing Marxist about The Netherlands. Maybe if you actually read some stuff, you'd know this.
denton-scratch 5y ago
The Netherlands is complying with a European Directive: 2001/23/EC. In the UK, that directive is embodied in the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) 2006 (TUPE) regulations. Basically, the directive prevents businesses sidestepping laws and contracts that protect employees' rights by transferring those employees to another organisation. Seems reasonable to me (if you share my view that employees have rights).