11 ms·

They exist for EU users of booking.com And several of the dark patterns don't. Because of fairly mild regulations that protect the consumer. Draw your own conc

by jahnu 5y ago

They exist for EU users of booking.com And several of the dark patterns don't. Because of fairly mild regulations that protect the consumer. Draw your own conclusions here.

ahartmetz 5y ago
Yes indeed - I'm a pretty frequent user from Germany and I have used the free cancellation feature a few times without trouble. You can tell that it's real from the fact that offers with free cancellation, especially when close to the arrival date, are a few percent more expensive ;)
MandieD 5y ago
After spending most of my adult life in Germany, I have to be extra-vigilant when doing anything with money back in the US - from remembering that the prices on the shelves are several percent lower than what I’m actually going to have to pay (while being way lower than VAT, sales tax is not included in prices!) to anything to do with cellphones, and then stuff like this.
- vinay427 5y ago
  On the other hand, after growing up in the US I have to do the same when shopping in Germany or Switzerland. It’s almost unheard of for stores here to offer compensation such as a refund or exchange for many situations commonplace in the US, and many customer service interactions for other things like a phone bill have exhibited stubbornness to arbitrary policies that borders on hostility IMO. I’m not sure sales tax excluded from prices is a matter of vigilance if it’s a nearly-universal national norm. It’s a bit like someone from the US complaining about being charged for bottled water at a restaurant in Spain after assuming they’d receive free tap water.
  - strzibny 5y ago
    No, I think this is about mental exercise. Do I have to go shopping with a calculator to know how much I am spending? To me personally it's weird. I come to shop with $5 but I don't know what I can actually buy...
    - vinay427 5y ago
      Yeah, I understand. It's definitely not ideal and I don't want to sound like I'm condoning it because it really should be improved. I'm just not sure there's an obvious solution given the US/Canadian regional/local autonomy over sales taxes, but I'm glad to hear ideas. Most towns in California, for instance, have their own sales tax rates and while this could obviously be accommodated in retail spaces (at the cost of confusing national advertising?) it makes displaying prices rather complicated on online marketplaces which currently add taxes once a shipping address is entered during the checkout process. In contrast, despite the reasonable regional autonomy in Switzerland (not too dissimilar from states in the US) a national VAT rate avoids this issue. The obvious exception is for marketplaces that sell to other markets. For instance, the prices on Amazon.de (Germany) change if a Swiss shipping address is entered due to the different VAT rate.
- bin_bash 5y ago
  What's so alarming about us not putting sales tax on products? I grew up in the US but in a non sales tax state so my experience until I was 25 was the same as yours. When I later moved to a sales tax state I knew the price was going to be ~5-10% higher than what was printed but I got used to it very quickly. I hate to stereotype but I've found Germans in my experience to take particular offense to this practice. I'm married to someone from the UK and British people complain about this as well but probably only 1/10 as much. I feel like if I asked most Germans their least favorite thing about the US this is would be the MOST common response. I don't get it.
  - dtech 5y ago
    It's a real-life dark pattern. The benefits of showing the price with taxes for consumers vastly outweigh the minor problems for stores, other than makes them look cheaper.
    - nottorp 5y ago
      I'd call it "fraud". The store is basically hiding the real price from me. Are there "service charges" too? :)
  - pgeorgi 5y ago
    Maybe due to the German fondness for cash? A few percent higher prices aren't as much of a deal when paying with credit card, the transaction works exactly the same, but when paying cash, it might look very different (up to "don't actually have enough with me. oops.")
    - bin_bash 5y ago
      This stands to reason, credit card use in the UK is very high. So high in fact I recall several times before I had a chip card having trouble paying at cashless kiosks.
  - danuker 5y ago
    > if I asked most Germans their least favorite thing about the US this is would be the MOST common response Either this or the Imperial units.
NumberCruncher 5y ago
> several of the dark patterns don't The "only x room left with these conditions" false claim is used also in the EU.
- tluyben2 5y ago
  Yep, cannot understand people still fall for that though. But I guess if you are a first time user… As it is a lie, it should not be allowed.
  - MikeDelta 5y ago
    Yeah, and 20 people looking at this room, booked 10x in the last hour, last one left. When you go to the hotel website instead, you see plenty of rooms left and sometimes with a nice offer.
    - 3boll 5y ago
      Agree, but the hotel will not alocate the all the rooms for booking/other platforms, just N rooms at Y$ price.
      - NumberCruncher 5y ago
        This is true, but I remember reading an article where the journalist compared the "only X rooms left with these conditions" claim to the system of the given hotel in real time. Well, as it turned out, the hotel had more than X free rooms with those conditions allocated to booking.com...
      - krono 5y ago
        Booking doesn't care, though. They'll happily overbook the rooms you assign them sometimes. Edit: It might have gotten better since, but I still remember all those sad/defeated/angry faces of people who had booked trough Booking.com that I had to send away / find alternative hotels for because we were full. Back then when.
qeternity 5y ago
Consumer travel protections in the US are much stronger than in Europe. I’m not really sure what regulations you’re thinking of. Source: American expat in Europe.
- herbst 5y ago
  How so? Afaik you don't even have proper laws for normal online purchasing returns. It's kinda hard to believe that in this section the US somehow managed to actually protect their people better than Europe.
  - qeternity 5y ago
    > It's kinda hard to believe that in this section the US somehow managed to actually protect their people better than Europe. Well, I don't know what to tell you. For instance, in the US you have 24 hours to cancel a flight booking for any reason if booked more than 7 days out. In Europe, you might get a 4 hour window if you're lucky, but often times not (especially with the vicious European LCCs).
- vinay427 5y ago
  I would tend to agree with this. I’ve rarely received a refund or other compensation at least in Switzerland (not in the EU) for things that would immediately be handled in the US, particularly for retail purchases. The Costco and Amazon effect is far more prominent in the US whereas I feel much more constrained as a consumer in many European countries.
  - adwww 5y ago
    I've lived in NY, CH and UK (where I'm from) and think Switerland is the odd one out in this respect. Quality of life is highest in most respects there, but only really so long as you're happy to go along with things and not rock the boat. Get paid well, enjoy the contryside, but know your place were the vibes I got ha.
  - zwaps 5y ago
    In the EU? For the first 6 months, the legal assumption is that any defect was present at purchase which means - in practice - you can return pretty much any defective item no questions asked. What did you want to return and could not?
rob74 5y ago
I don't know how many of the dark patterns I don't get to see as an EU user (not that I want to see them), but there are plenty still there: only showing positive reviews or stressing the positive features of an accommodation ("very quiet" because it's in the middle of nowhere etc.), pressuring you into booking by showing accommodations that are already fully booked, showing how many users are allegedly looking at the same offer "right now", showing that they only have 0.5 rooms left etc. etc. etc.

by jahnu 5y ago

They exist for EU users of booking.com And several of the dark patterns don't. Because of fairly mild regulations that protect the consumer. Draw your own conclusions here.

ahartmetz 5y ago

Yes indeed - I'm a pretty frequent user from Germany and I have used the free cancellation feature a few times without trouble. You can tell that it's real from the fact that offers with free cancellation, especially when close to the arrival date, are a few percent more expensive ;)

MandieD 5y ago

After spending most of my adult life in Germany, I have to be extra-vigilant when doing anything with money back in the US - from remembering that the prices on the shelves are several percent lower than what I’m actually going to have to pay (while being way lower than VAT, sales tax is not included in prices!) to anything to do with cellphones, and then stuff like this.

vinay427 5y ago
On the other hand, after growing up in the US I have to do the same when shopping in Germany or Switzerland. It’s almost unheard of for stores here to offer compensation such as a refund or exchange for many situations commonplace in the US, and many customer service interactions for other things like a phone bill have exhibited stubbornness to arbitrary policies that borders on hostility IMO. I’m not sure sales tax excluded from prices is a matter of vigilance if it’s a nearly-universal national norm. It’s a bit like someone from the US complaining about being charged for bottled water at a restaurant in Spain after assuming they’d receive free tap water.
- strzibny 5y ago
  No, I think this is about mental exercise. Do I have to go shopping with a calculator to know how much I am spending? To me personally it's weird. I come to shop with $5 but I don't know what I can actually buy...
  - vinay427 5y ago
    Yeah, I understand. It's definitely not ideal and I don't want to sound like I'm condoning it because it really should be improved. I'm just not sure there's an obvious solution given the US/Canadian regional/local autonomy over sales taxes, but I'm glad to hear ideas. Most towns in California, for instance, have their own sales tax rates and while this could obviously be accommodated in retail spaces (at the cost of confusing national advertising?) it makes displaying prices rather complicated on online marketplaces which currently add taxes once a shipping address is entered during the checkout process. In contrast, despite the reasonable regional autonomy in Switzerland (not too dissimilar from states in the US) a national VAT rate avoids this issue. The obvious exception is for marketplaces that sell to other markets. For instance, the prices on Amazon.de (Germany) change if a Swiss shipping address is entered due to the different VAT rate.
bin_bash 5y ago
What's so alarming about us not putting sales tax on products? I grew up in the US but in a non sales tax state so my experience until I was 25 was the same as yours. When I later moved to a sales tax state I knew the price was going to be ~5-10% higher than what was printed but I got used to it very quickly. I hate to stereotype but I've found Germans in my experience to take particular offense to this practice. I'm married to someone from the UK and British people complain about this as well but probably only 1/10 as much. I feel like if I asked most Germans their least favorite thing about the US this is would be the MOST common response. I don't get it.
- dtech 5y ago
  It's a real-life dark pattern. The benefits of showing the price with taxes for consumers vastly outweigh the minor problems for stores, other than makes them look cheaper.
  - nottorp 5y ago
    I'd call it "fraud". The store is basically hiding the real price from me. Are there "service charges" too? :)
- pgeorgi 5y ago
  Maybe due to the German fondness for cash? A few percent higher prices aren't as much of a deal when paying with credit card, the transaction works exactly the same, but when paying cash, it might look very different (up to "don't actually have enough with me. oops.")
  - bin_bash 5y ago
    This stands to reason, credit card use in the UK is very high. So high in fact I recall several times before I had a chip card having trouble paying at cashless kiosks.
- danuker 5y ago
  > if I asked most Germans their least favorite thing about the US this is would be the MOST common response Either this or the Imperial units.

NumberCruncher 5y ago

> several of the dark patterns don't The "only x room left with these conditions" false claim is used also in the EU.

tluyben2 5y ago
Yep, cannot understand people still fall for that though. But I guess if you are a first time user… As it is a lie, it should not be allowed.
- MikeDelta 5y ago
  Yeah, and 20 people looking at this room, booked 10x in the last hour, last one left. When you go to the hotel website instead, you see plenty of rooms left and sometimes with a nice offer.
  - 3boll 5y ago
    Agree, but the hotel will not alocate the all the rooms for booking/other platforms, just N rooms at Y$ price.
    - NumberCruncher 5y ago
      This is true, but I remember reading an article where the journalist compared the "only X rooms left with these conditions" claim to the system of the given hotel in real time. Well, as it turned out, the hotel had more than X free rooms with those conditions allocated to booking.com...
    - krono 5y ago
      Booking doesn't care, though. They'll happily overbook the rooms you assign them sometimes. Edit: It might have gotten better since, but I still remember all those sad/defeated/angry faces of people who had booked trough Booking.com that I had to send away / find alternative hotels for because we were full. Back then when.

qeternity 5y ago

Consumer travel protections in the US are much stronger than in Europe. I’m not really sure what regulations you’re thinking of. Source: American expat in Europe.

herbst 5y ago
How so? Afaik you don't even have proper laws for normal online purchasing returns. It's kinda hard to believe that in this section the US somehow managed to actually protect their people better than Europe.
- qeternity 5y ago
  > It's kinda hard to believe that in this section the US somehow managed to actually protect their people better than Europe. Well, I don't know what to tell you. For instance, in the US you have 24 hours to cancel a flight booking for any reason if booked more than 7 days out. In Europe, you might get a 4 hour window if you're lucky, but often times not (especially with the vicious European LCCs).
vinay427 5y ago
I would tend to agree with this. I’ve rarely received a refund or other compensation at least in Switzerland (not in the EU) for things that would immediately be handled in the US, particularly for retail purchases. The Costco and Amazon effect is far more prominent in the US whereas I feel much more constrained as a consumer in many European countries.
- adwww 5y ago
  I've lived in NY, CH and UK (where I'm from) and think Switerland is the odd one out in this respect. Quality of life is highest in most respects there, but only really so long as you're happy to go along with things and not rock the boat. Get paid well, enjoy the contryside, but know your place were the vibes I got ha.
- zwaps 5y ago
  In the EU? For the first 6 months, the legal assumption is that any defect was present at purchase which means - in practice - you can return pretty much any defective item no questions asked. What did you want to return and could not?

rob74 5y ago

I don't know how many of the dark patterns I don't get to see as an EU user (not that I want to see them), but there are plenty still there: only showing positive reviews or stressing the positive features of an accommodation ("very quiet" because it's in the middle of nowhere etc.), pressuring you into booking by showing accommodations that are already fully booked, showing how many users are allegedly looking at the same offer "right now", showing that they only have 0.5 rooms left etc. etc. etc.