5 ms·

I love how some folks are like "Elon isn't a real engineer!" and then he starts going on a tangent in the middle of a presser about how flanges are a PITA to se

by kortex 5y ago

I love how some folks are like "Elon isn't a real engineer!" and then he starts going on a tangent in the middle of a presser about how flanges are a PITA to seal once you exceed a few hundred bar (just over a few thousand PSI), and how welding improves the plumbing significantly. Like, what!? That's not how C-suite bigwigs talk. That's primo enginerd banter.

belter 5y ago
Which one of these personalities is he, when making statements about Tesla FSD? Edit: The answer to this question will be highly relevant during the lawsuits that will follow, the first time the Beta FSD kills somebody.
- dymk 5y ago
  The kind that raises capital, probably
  - vardump 5y ago
    Capital... for SpaceX? Because Tesla is already self-funding, with practically no capital access requirements.
- panick21_ 5y ago
  Engineers can never be wrong about anything. Any engineer making any statement that is wrong must be fundamentally evil.
  - JaimeThompson 5y ago
    He has been making such statements for 5+ years so I suggest he isn't being an engineer when making them, he is being a PR person.
    - more_corn 5y ago
      Elon is wrong about FSD being easy and about his approach, and his timeline. If he can be wrong about those things with grace it’ll be fine. I don’t know if he can do that. His track record for admitting he was wrong hasn’t been great.
- ipspam 5y ago
  Your comment illustrates the absurdity of said lawsuit. No one has been run over yet.
  - belter 5y ago
    By pure luck. And any driver facing several years in jail for an accident caused while using the Beta FSD, will engage a proper legal team. Any legal team worth its salt, will immediately subpoena Tesla for documents. They will present a legal case, that will include past YouTube videos and Tesla company presentations. They will state that their client was misled by the company statements, Twitter and YouTube endorsers, and the contents of the car documentation were minor standard disclaimers. Contrarily to what many think, most legal teams are actually pretty smart and astute;-)
    - Retric 5y ago
      Tesla autopilot has already been driving during multiple accidents that killed people. Tesla the company isn’t at significant risk from these accidents or related lawsuits as the driver and thus their insurance is still considered legally responsible. Further, car accidents in general have relatively low payouts even when someone is blatantly at fault. Even being held responsible for say 10 fatalities per year would be a rounding error on their balance sheet, which is consistent with other industries that have killed vastly more people via things like pollution. It’s reasonable to suggest human lives should have more value, but when you look at an airplane crash that kills hundreds it’s mostly an issue for an airlines reputation.
      - belter 5y ago
        A legal theory that might be challenged soon. We will see what comes out of this case: "Two people killed in fiery Tesla crash with no one driving" https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/18/22390612/two-people-killed-fiery-tesla-crash-no-driver https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/18/22390612/two-people-kille...
        Retric 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kortex 5y ago
  I think he's more in-depth about the rocket stuff than the Tesla stuff. He seems to exhibit more of the broad sentiments and more manager-esque talk when it comes to FSD. I don't know how that plays into legal ramifications at all; I'm sure there will be the inevitable "well Elon said it can drive itself and make breakfast and solve P=NP!" but I have no clue if that carries any legal weight and frankly I don't care. He's a bit of a massive douche (no worse than bog-standard billionaires) but he has nerd chops and done a good job of hyping electric cars and space. Honestly I kinda wish he'd just focus on the rocket stuff and lay off the FSD until it's a bit more mature exactly because of the media and lawyers chomping at the bit.
- mlindner 5y ago
  As someone who has been following him for a long time and as someone who likes him a lot, I feel his understanding of ML and technologies related to FSD to be the worst of his knowledge. He fails to answer interesting technical questions when they are posed to him by audiences in the past. His lack of understanding of ML and FSD make me highly doubt that Tesla will ever achieve it. I still like Tesla and they have revolutionized an industry, but they need to completely end the FSD program and move on with mass production of cool vehicles. It's a boondoggle.
Waterluvian 5y ago
I have no opinion to express on Elon but I will say that I’ve heard non-technical managers lap up stuff like that in meetings with the engineers and then regurgitate it elsewhere. If I had to guess his technical competence is somewhere in the middle of the distribution of opinions on the matter. I’m sure he’s fine.
- anonporridge 5y ago
  Certainly plausible, though I've seen enough interviews with him talking to other engineers where he can pro-actively engage in a freeflowing conversation to believe that it's far more than mere regurgitation.
  - mlindner 5y ago
    This one is a favorite: https://youtu.be/da3iF2Np51A?t=944 https://youtu.be/da3iF2Np51A?t=944
- kortex 5y ago
  Sure but if you ever listen to his longer interviews, in particular those with Tim Dodd (Everyday Astronaut), it's very clear he has a deep understanding of rocket mechanics, production, logistics, launch pad development, etc. It's well beyond manager-just-regurgitating-stuff they hear. One interview he stops briefly and gets into some nitty gritty about hold-downs on the starship pad or something.
  - JaimeThompson 5y ago
    He also has a deep understanding of how important government assistance was to getting SpaceX where it is now but that hasn't stopped him from trying to stop others from benefiting from the same. He shows a lack of rational thought in regards too SpaceX that is sometimes rather worrying. Take, for example, the time he smoked a blunt on camera which isn't exactly what one of his largest customers likes to see in their executives they are entrusting with launching one of a kind national security assets. I'm glad SpaceX has an actual professional management team to run most day to day operations.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
panick21_ 5y ago
One of the secrets about Musk is that he is actually a much better speaker when he just goes of on technical stuff like that. The problem with Musk is that when you ask him an even slightly open question, he always basically goes to the what he considers the fundamental answer. That's why so many of his answer are the same and people who know him well can already tell what most answers to most question will be. However good interviewer can actually lead him into explaining into going into actual detail and ask smart follow up question and his answers are usually very good. The problem is, far to often he is either doing presentations like this with Q/A or he does podcast aimed at general audiences. The best interviews with him are with people like Everyday Austronaut where he gets to follow up multible time to actually get out really good information. I wish he would do more interviews like that, where people can prepare questions and be more direct at what they want to learn. Musk comes of much better in interviews like that and its where you actually learn more of the technical information. We understand that reusable rockets are important, but not why the engine doesn't blow up after 5 runs.
- kortex 5y ago
  Yep, I can really feel the friction from the gears in his head when he's trying to explain something at a general level, or express broad empty platitudes about space, electric cars, AI, or whatnot. That's something I've definitely struggled with, and also why I dig it when he shuts off the filter and starts talking about leaky flanges or deleting some crufty noise-absorbing padding that was the engineering equivalent of the parable of monkeys with a ladder. Like if I wanted to hear billionaires bloviating boring bullet points about business buzzwords, I'd listen to Bezos.
- mlindner 5y ago
  This is a good example of that as well: https://youtu.be/da3iF2Np51A?t=944 https://youtu.be/da3iF2Np51A?t=944

by kortex 5y ago

belter 5y ago

Which one of these personalities is he, when making statements about Tesla FSD? Edit: The answer to this question will be highly relevant during the lawsuits that will follow, the first time the Beta FSD kills somebody.

dymk 5y ago
The kind that raises capital, probably
- vardump 5y ago
  Capital... for SpaceX? Because Tesla is already self-funding, with practically no capital access requirements.
panick21_ 5y ago
Engineers can never be wrong about anything. Any engineer making any statement that is wrong must be fundamentally evil.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  He has been making such statements for 5+ years so I suggest he isn't being an engineer when making them, he is being a PR person.
  - more_corn 5y ago
    Elon is wrong about FSD being easy and about his approach, and his timeline. If he can be wrong about those things with grace it’ll be fine. I don’t know if he can do that. His track record for admitting he was wrong hasn’t been great.
ipspam 5y ago
Your comment illustrates the absurdity of said lawsuit. No one has been run over yet.
- belter 5y ago
  By pure luck. And any driver facing several years in jail for an accident caused while using the Beta FSD, will engage a proper legal team. Any legal team worth its salt, will immediately subpoena Tesla for documents. They will present a legal case, that will include past YouTube videos and Tesla company presentations. They will state that their client was misled by the company statements, Twitter and YouTube endorsers, and the contents of the car documentation were minor standard disclaimers. Contrarily to what many think, most legal teams are actually pretty smart and astute;-)
  - Retric 5y ago
    Tesla autopilot has already been driving during multiple accidents that killed people. Tesla the company isn’t at significant risk from these accidents or related lawsuits as the driver and thus their insurance is still considered legally responsible. Further, car accidents in general have relatively low payouts even when someone is blatantly at fault. Even being held responsible for say 10 fatalities per year would be a rounding error on their balance sheet, which is consistent with other industries that have killed vastly more people via things like pollution. It’s reasonable to suggest human lives should have more value, but when you look at an airplane crash that kills hundreds it’s mostly an issue for an airlines reputation.
    - belter 5y ago
      A legal theory that might be challenged soon. We will see what comes out of this case: "Two people killed in fiery Tesla crash with no one driving" https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/18/22390612/two-people-killed-fiery-tesla-crash-no-driver https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/18/22390612/two-people-kille...
      - Retric 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kortex 5y ago
I think he's more in-depth about the rocket stuff than the Tesla stuff. He seems to exhibit more of the broad sentiments and more manager-esque talk when it comes to FSD. I don't know how that plays into legal ramifications at all; I'm sure there will be the inevitable "well Elon said it can drive itself and make breakfast and solve P=NP!" but I have no clue if that carries any legal weight and frankly I don't care. He's a bit of a massive douche (no worse than bog-standard billionaires) but he has nerd chops and done a good job of hyping electric cars and space. Honestly I kinda wish he'd just focus on the rocket stuff and lay off the FSD until it's a bit more mature exactly because of the media and lawyers chomping at the bit.
mlindner 5y ago
As someone who has been following him for a long time and as someone who likes him a lot, I feel his understanding of ML and technologies related to FSD to be the worst of his knowledge. He fails to answer interesting technical questions when they are posed to him by audiences in the past. His lack of understanding of ML and FSD make me highly doubt that Tesla will ever achieve it. I still like Tesla and they have revolutionized an industry, but they need to completely end the FSD program and move on with mass production of cool vehicles. It's a boondoggle.

Waterluvian 5y ago

I have no opinion to express on Elon but I will say that I’ve heard non-technical managers lap up stuff like that in meetings with the engineers and then regurgitate it elsewhere. If I had to guess his technical competence is somewhere in the middle of the distribution of opinions on the matter. I’m sure he’s fine.

anonporridge 5y ago
Certainly plausible, though I've seen enough interviews with him talking to other engineers where he can pro-actively engage in a freeflowing conversation to believe that it's far more than mere regurgitation.
- mlindner 5y ago
  This one is a favorite: https://youtu.be/da3iF2Np51A?t=944 https://youtu.be/da3iF2Np51A?t=944
kortex 5y ago
Sure but if you ever listen to his longer interviews, in particular those with Tim Dodd (Everyday Astronaut), it's very clear he has a deep understanding of rocket mechanics, production, logistics, launch pad development, etc. It's well beyond manager-just-regurgitating-stuff they hear. One interview he stops briefly and gets into some nitty gritty about hold-downs on the starship pad or something.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  He also has a deep understanding of how important government assistance was to getting SpaceX where it is now but that hasn't stopped him from trying to stop others from benefiting from the same. He shows a lack of rational thought in regards too SpaceX that is sometimes rather worrying. Take, for example, the time he smoked a blunt on camera which isn't exactly what one of his largest customers likes to see in their executives they are entrusting with launching one of a kind national security assets. I'm glad SpaceX has an actual professional management team to run most day to day operations.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

panick21_ 5y ago

One of the secrets about Musk is that he is actually a much better speaker when he just goes of on technical stuff like that. The problem with Musk is that when you ask him an even slightly open question, he always basically goes to the what he considers the fundamental answer. That's why so many of his answer are the same and people who know him well can already tell what most answers to most question will be. However good interviewer can actually lead him into explaining into going into actual detail and ask smart follow up question and his answers are usually very good. The problem is, far to often he is either doing presentations like this with Q/A or he does podcast aimed at general audiences. The best interviews with him are with people like Everyday Austronaut where he gets to follow up multible time to actually get out really good information. I wish he would do more interviews like that, where people can prepare questions and be more direct at what they want to learn. Musk comes of much better in interviews like that and its where you actually learn more of the technical information. We understand that reusable rockets are important, but not why the engine doesn't blow up after 5 runs.

kortex 5y ago
Yep, I can really feel the friction from the gears in his head when he's trying to explain something at a general level, or express broad empty platitudes about space, electric cars, AI, or whatnot. That's something I've definitely struggled with, and also why I dig it when he shuts off the filter and starts talking about leaky flanges or deleting some crufty noise-absorbing padding that was the engineering equivalent of the parable of monkeys with a ladder. Like if I wanted to hear billionaires bloviating boring bullet points about business buzzwords, I'd listen to Bezos.
mlindner 5y ago
This is a good example of that as well: https://youtu.be/da3iF2Np51A?t=944 https://youtu.be/da3iF2Np51A?t=944