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> "progressive" vs. "traditional" views on race -- are used as euphemisms, where "traditional views" are more prejudiced That's not true though. Allow me to de

by yucky 5y ago

> "progressive" vs. "traditional" views on race -- are used as euphemisms, where "traditional views" are more prejudiced That's not true though. Allow me to demonstrate. Ask any progressive the following question: Do you think the government and educational institutions should treat people differently based on the color of their skin - yes or no? Now watch that progressive either a)change the subject and evade answering the question.. or b)Justify their reasoning for why they think people should be treated differently based on their skin color. This is (by definition) support of racial discrimination. Many progressives have even gone so far as to claim the concept of racial equality is not progressive, demanding instead policies that seek to achieve racial equity, a concept that requires racial discrimination to implement. So progressives literally support polices that require racial preferences/prejudice. As to conservatives, they support equal treatment under the law regardless of race. At worst you could accuse some of supporting polices that could potentially have disparate impact. But progressives support actual racial discrimination. Which is worse, in your mind?

smt88 5y ago
> So progressives literally support polices that require racial preferences/prejudice. Racial preferences/prejudice != eugenics. They're different concepts. You can say that both are forms of racism, but this thread was original about eugenics. You are describing affirmative action, which I have not said is a conservative idea (because it isn't). > Now watch that progressive either a)change the subject and evade answering the question.. or b)Justify their reasoning for why they think people should be treated differently based on their skin color. While I don't agree with affirmative action, you're intentionally misconstruing the actual argument for it. The argument is: we can observe racial bias in society, and we can use institutions to compensate for it. > As to conservatives, they support equal treatment under the law regardless of race. At worst you could accuse some of supporting polices that could potentially have disparate impact. I could accuse conservative leaders of intentionally creating policies that have disparate impact[1]. I don't think most conservative voters are on board with it, but it's a massive problem with conservative leadership in the US. > But progressives support actual racial discrimination. Which is worse, in your mind? This is completely, utterly off-topic, but I'll respond anyway: Both are bad and unacceptable. Conservative policies are, in effect, worse. The racism wasn't always open or public, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. It was explicitly stated behind closed doors and in documents[1][2]. Conservative policies that criminalized behaviors associated with black people -- like using marijuana, loitering, tinting car windows, etc. -- have destroyed the lives of tens of millions of people. Affirmative action hasn't done that. And what about the black people who weren't put in jail for being poor? Conservative policies openly discriminated against black people on the basis of race until 1968[3], and they have had a deep effect on generational wealth (and well-being) of Americans in the decades since then. Conservatives were pro-slavery, pro-segregation, and pro-war on drugs. The KKK was a conservative organization, not a progressive one -- and modern conservatives are still using their slogan today[4]. Conservatives give harsher sentences to black people than to white people for the same crimes[5]. There is no reasonable argument based on historical evidence that a few decades of affirmative action can outweigh hundreds of years of grinding people into the dirt, including chattel slavery and mass incarceration for victimless crime. It's why black people overwhelming vote against Republicans, even though many of them are fiscally and socially conservative[6]. 1. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-secret-files-of-the-master-of-modern-republican-gerrymandering https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-secret-files-of... 2. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-shocking-and-sickening-story-behind-nixons-war-on-drugs-that-targeted-blacks-and-anti-war-activists/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-shocking-and-sickening-st... 3. https://www.bostonfairhousing.org/timeline/1934-1968-FHA-Redlining.html https://www.bostonfairhousing.org/timeline/1934-1968-FHA-Red... 4. https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/ku-klux-klan-stages-an-america-first-parade-in-binghamton-news-photo/514702614 https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/ku-klux-klan-s... 5. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2021/08/10/courts-in-more-republican-leaning-counties-sentence-black-individuals-to-longer-prison-terms-than-white-individuals/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2021/08/10/courts-in-more-... 6. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/02/27/5-facts-about-black-democrats/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/02/27/5-facts-abo...
- yucky 5y ago
  You have created quite a strawman. Nowhere in my post do I even mention Affirmative Action. Yet your entire defense of the seemingly natural urge that "progressives" have to treat people differently based on skin color is predicated on one aspect of their prejudice. But progressives support the use of racial prejudice in many aspects of life. Most, actually. In fact, racial preferences are the foundation of modern progressive thought. In either case, your defense of racial prejudice is duly noted.
  - smt88 5y ago
    > your defense of racial prejudice is duly noted I said I disagree with affirmative action. Nothing I have written suggests this. You're either a troll or you need to read my comment again. > But progressives support the use of racial prejudice in many aspects of life. Please list some and cite sources. The only one I know of is affirmative action.
    - yucky 5y ago
      Do you think the government and educational institutions should treat people differently based on the color of their skin - yes or no?
      - smt88 5y ago
        I said I didn't several comments ago. Do you have a counter-argument to make, one that addresses the facts I gave? It seems like this is a weird culture war issue for you, where you need to put me in a box and can't see past that.
        yucky 5y ago
        >I said I didn't several comments ago. I'm curious then, if you don't support racial equity programs, and that is foundational to modern progressive thought, then why would you still consider yourself a progressive? It's not like racial equity is "one thing" (a la abortion, gun rights etc) and you can just decide you aren't ideologically aligned with that one thing. It's the bedrock upon which all modern progressive ideology & policy proposals rest. I guess I'm curious how you square that circle, in your mind.

by yucky 5y ago

smt88 5y ago

> So progressives literally support polices that require racial preferences/prejudice. Racial preferences/prejudice != eugenics. They're different concepts. You can say that both are forms of racism, but this thread was original about eugenics. You are describing affirmative action, which I have not said is a conservative idea (because it isn't). > Now watch that progressive either a)change the subject and evade answering the question.. or b)Justify their reasoning for why they think people should be treated differently based on their skin color. While I don't agree with affirmative action, you're intentionally misconstruing the actual argument for it. The argument is: we can observe racial bias in society, and we can use institutions to compensate for it. > As to conservatives, they support equal treatment under the law regardless of race. At worst you could accuse some of supporting polices that could potentially have disparate impact. I could accuse conservative leaders of intentionally creating policies that have disparate impact[1]. I don't think most conservative voters are on board with it, but it's a massive problem with conservative leadership in the US. > But progressives support actual racial discrimination. Which is worse, in your mind? This is completely, utterly off-topic, but I'll respond anyway: Both are bad and unacceptable. Conservative policies are, in effect, worse. The racism wasn't always open or public, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. It was explicitly stated behind closed doors and in documents[1][2]. Conservative policies that criminalized behaviors associated with black people -- like using marijuana, loitering, tinting car windows, etc. -- have destroyed the lives of tens of millions of people. Affirmative action hasn't done that. And what about the black people who weren't put in jail for being poor? Conservative policies openly discriminated against black people on the basis of race until 1968[3], and they have had a deep effect on generational wealth (and well-being) of Americans in the decades since then. Conservatives were pro-slavery, pro-segregation, and pro-war on drugs. The KKK was a conservative organization, not a progressive one -- and modern conservatives are still using their slogan today[4]. Conservatives give harsher sentences to black people than to white people for the same crimes[5]. There is no reasonable argument based on historical evidence that a few decades of affirmative action can outweigh hundreds of years of grinding people into the dirt, including chattel slavery and mass incarceration for victimless crime. It's why black people overwhelming vote against Republicans, even though many of them are fiscally and socially conservative[6]. 1. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-secret-files-of-the-master-of-modern-republican-gerrymandering https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-secret-files-of... 2. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-shocking-and-sickening-story-behind-nixons-war-on-drugs-that-targeted-blacks-and-anti-war-activists/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-shocking-and-sickening-st... 3. https://www.bostonfairhousing.org/timeline/1934-1968-FHA-Redlining.html https://www.bostonfairhousing.org/timeline/1934-1968-FHA-Red... 4. https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/ku-klux-klan-stages-an-america-first-parade-in-binghamton-news-photo/514702614 https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/ku-klux-klan-s... 5. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2021/08/10/courts-in-more-republican-leaning-counties-sentence-black-individuals-to-longer-prison-terms-than-white-individuals/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2021/08/10/courts-in-more-... 6. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/02/27/5-facts-about-black-democrats/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/02/27/5-facts-abo...

yucky 5y ago
You have created quite a strawman. Nowhere in my post do I even mention Affirmative Action. Yet your entire defense of the seemingly natural urge that "progressives" have to treat people differently based on skin color is predicated on one aspect of their prejudice. But progressives support the use of racial prejudice in many aspects of life. Most, actually. In fact, racial preferences are the foundation of modern progressive thought. In either case, your defense of racial prejudice is duly noted.
- smt88 5y ago
  > your defense of racial prejudice is duly noted I said I disagree with affirmative action. Nothing I have written suggests this. You're either a troll or you need to read my comment again. > But progressives support the use of racial prejudice in many aspects of life. Please list some and cite sources. The only one I know of is affirmative action.
  - yucky 5y ago
    Do you think the government and educational institutions should treat people differently based on the color of their skin - yes or no?
    - smt88 5y ago
      I said I didn't several comments ago. Do you have a counter-argument to make, one that addresses the facts I gave? It seems like this is a weird culture war issue for you, where you need to put me in a box and can't see past that.
      - yucky 5y ago
        >I said I didn't several comments ago. I'm curious then, if you don't support racial equity programs, and that is foundational to modern progressive thought, then why would you still consider yourself a progressive? It's not like racial equity is "one thing" (a la abortion, gun rights etc) and you can just decide you aren't ideologically aligned with that one thing. It's the bedrock upon which all modern progressive ideology & policy proposals rest. I guess I'm curious how you square that circle, in your mind.