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> But Apple apparently has done it with anti-stalking features but is too high-profile. Remember that stalking isn't a profession; it's often a crime of opport

> But Apple apparently has done it with anti-stalking features but is too high-profile. Remember that stalking isn't a profession; it's often a crime of opportunity, with plenty of reported cases of e.g. people slipping GPS trackers into spouses' cars/bags before or during divorces. Those people aren't sophisticated, and might go on Amazon and see Tiles that won't work (sparse detection network), or GPS trackers that cost the same as AirTags and have a monthly subscription. Or they could just pick a spare AirTag they have, and use that, because they know their spouse has an Android and wouldn't detect it. Again, the problem isn't that AirTags have been nerfed into uselessness because of anti-stalking protection. The problem is that AirTags still, to this day, present a major Android stalking risk (no AirTags notifications on Android with Apple's app, you have to manually scan), and Apple seems uninterested in doing anything about it (or even promising to do anything about it, since this announcement doesn't mention Android).

gjsman-1000 5y ago
> Those people aren't sophisticated It is foolish to underestimate stalkers and stereotype it as just a crime of opportunity. > "problem is that AirTags still, to this day, present a major Android stalking risk" Ironically, so did Tile for the last 8 years, and Samsung's own Galaxy trackers for Android, but there is no outcry about them. Also, considering how long Tile has been on the market, this doesn't seem like a new issue. Also, Apple has built-in "Find My Friends" in iPhone. A stalker could just flip that on without telling the person being stalked (assuming he/she is close to him/her), and the phone would be tracking them, no tag necessary. Yet nobody ever hears about this being abused much. > "AirTags have been nerfed into uselessness because of anti-stalking protection" Hey, if I lose my wallet in my own home, it's great. If I can't find my wallet at the gas station, I can figure out where in the car it fell. There are plenty of ways it is still plenty useful. Also, if you are complaining about uselessness, maybe Apple should roll-back some anti-stalking protections but you'd be against that too. This leaves you in the impossible position of wanting Apple to restrict it more (reduce stalking) and simultaneously unlock it more (to improve utility), all while competitors don't bother with stalking prevention at all.
- concinds 5y ago
  It feels like you're twisting my words. I never said Apple should unlock it more, I said they should discontinue it, and their executives displayed poor judgment in approving the product. I never argued that AirTags were nerfed into uselessness, I responded to your argument that they were nerfed into becoming useless for stalking, which I don't think is true. > Ironically, so did Tile for the last 8 years, and Samsung's own Galaxy trackers for Android, but there is no outcry about them Plenty of people have iPads catching dust in drawers, who would never have bought Android tablets (or any tablet) if the iPad had never existed. It's the power of Apple's marketing. Anytime I argue against AirTags, I argue that availability is a game-changer, and nobody actually tried to address this argument convincingly. - Someone at a club or rave might impulsively or drunkenly decide to remove the AirTag they use for their keyring, and slip it into someone's pocket. They might never have bought a tracker if Apple didn't have one. - Again, the iPad-catching-dust-in-a-drawer argument. Plenty of people buy Apple products on a whim who would never have considered that product category if the Apple product didn't exist. iPads popularized tablets, Apple Watches popularized smartwatches (at least among US teens), AirPods popularized bluetooth earphones). Apple's marketing doesn't just increase sales for their products, it promotes the entire product category. People hear about iPad, are interested, and might buy an iPad or a cheaper competitor; when they would never have bought a tablet if the iPad hadn't created a "halo effect". You can argue the effect is less for AirTags, but don't tell me it's nonexistent! - The copycat effect is strong among criminals. Ransomware attacks were almost nonexistent, and became common very rapidly, as awareness spread among criminals, as they rushed to take advantage of the opportunity before the crypto, legal, or antivirus ecosystems catch up and make it less rewarding. In 2009 around 1 in 13 stalkers used trackers of any kind; that number's surely gone up between 2009 and 2021 (AirTag release), but you really think that number won't go over the next few years, partly because of increased popular awareness of trackers? > It is foolish to underestimate stalkers and stereotype it as just a crime of opportunity. I said often a crime of opportunity, not always (or even mostly), and that those for whom it was a crime of opportunity, weren't sophisticated. The average bank robber might have done a good deal of research on bank security systems and circumvention. The average stalker might not think of using GPS tracking unless he's reminded of their existence, since there are so many other methods (likely, most stalking is online nowadays). Hence my "availability" argument.
crumpled 5y ago
It's all adding up to a pretty good guerilla marketing campaign. Get an iPhone, or else. Every Android user needs Airguard, which will scan constantly for airtags. It's open source
- intothemild 5y ago
  I think it's a horrible world we now live in where we HAVE to install software to solve a problem other people have created for my safety in the real world. I bet you Google has had conversations about integrating some kind of airtag tracking feature into their software. The OP is right. Airtags are not the greatest idea and the abuse of them is disastrous for people who are not on the apple ecosystem. The attitude of apple so far has been horrible... Their app sucks.. only works when you open it.... They can do better but refuse to, because they don't care for our safety unless we buy an Apple product. Sorry but that's unacceptable

gjsman-1000 5y ago

> Those people aren't sophisticated It is foolish to underestimate stalkers and stereotype it as just a crime of opportunity. > "problem is that AirTags still, to this day, present a major Android stalking risk" Ironically, so did Tile for the last 8 years, and Samsung's own Galaxy trackers for Android, but there is no outcry about them. Also, considering how long Tile has been on the market, this doesn't seem like a new issue. Also, Apple has built-in "Find My Friends" in iPhone. A stalker could just flip that on without telling the person being stalked (assuming he/she is close to him/her), and the phone would be tracking them, no tag necessary. Yet nobody ever hears about this being abused much. > "AirTags have been nerfed into uselessness because of anti-stalking protection" Hey, if I lose my wallet in my own home, it's great. If I can't find my wallet at the gas station, I can figure out where in the car it fell. There are plenty of ways it is still plenty useful. Also, if you are complaining about uselessness, maybe Apple should roll-back some anti-stalking protections but you'd be against that too. This leaves you in the impossible position of wanting Apple to restrict it more (reduce stalking) and simultaneously unlock it more (to improve utility), all while competitors don't bother with stalking prevention at all.

concinds 5y ago
It feels like you're twisting my words. I never said Apple should unlock it more, I said they should discontinue it, and their executives displayed poor judgment in approving the product. I never argued that AirTags were nerfed into uselessness, I responded to your argument that they were nerfed into becoming useless for stalking, which I don't think is true. > Ironically, so did Tile for the last 8 years, and Samsung's own Galaxy trackers for Android, but there is no outcry about them Plenty of people have iPads catching dust in drawers, who would never have bought Android tablets (or any tablet) if the iPad had never existed. It's the power of Apple's marketing. Anytime I argue against AirTags, I argue that availability is a game-changer, and nobody actually tried to address this argument convincingly. - Someone at a club or rave might impulsively or drunkenly decide to remove the AirTag they use for their keyring, and slip it into someone's pocket. They might never have bought a tracker if Apple didn't have one. - Again, the iPad-catching-dust-in-a-drawer argument. Plenty of people buy Apple products on a whim who would never have considered that product category if the Apple product didn't exist. iPads popularized tablets, Apple Watches popularized smartwatches (at least among US teens), AirPods popularized bluetooth earphones). Apple's marketing doesn't just increase sales for their products, it promotes the entire product category. People hear about iPad, are interested, and might buy an iPad or a cheaper competitor; when they would never have bought a tablet if the iPad hadn't created a "halo effect". You can argue the effect is less for AirTags, but don't tell me it's nonexistent! - The copycat effect is strong among criminals. Ransomware attacks were almost nonexistent, and became common very rapidly, as awareness spread among criminals, as they rushed to take advantage of the opportunity before the crypto, legal, or antivirus ecosystems catch up and make it less rewarding. In 2009 around 1 in 13 stalkers used trackers of any kind; that number's surely gone up between 2009 and 2021 (AirTag release), but you really think that number won't go over the next few years, partly because of increased popular awareness of trackers? > It is foolish to underestimate stalkers and stereotype it as just a crime of opportunity. I said often a crime of opportunity, not always (or even mostly), and that those for whom it was a crime of opportunity, weren't sophisticated. The average bank robber might have done a good deal of research on bank security systems and circumvention. The average stalker might not think of using GPS tracking unless he's reminded of their existence, since there are so many other methods (likely, most stalking is online nowadays). Hence my "availability" argument.

crumpled 5y ago

It's all adding up to a pretty good guerilla marketing campaign. Get an iPhone, or else. Every Android user needs Airguard, which will scan constantly for airtags. It's open source

intothemild 5y ago
I think it's a horrible world we now live in where we HAVE to install software to solve a problem other people have created for my safety in the real world. I bet you Google has had conversations about integrating some kind of airtag tracking feature into their software. The OP is right. Airtags are not the greatest idea and the abuse of them is disastrous for people who are not on the apple ecosystem. The attitude of apple so far has been horrible... Their app sucks.. only works when you open it.... They can do better but refuse to, because they don't care for our safety unless we buy an Apple product. Sorry but that's unacceptable