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Trackers have been around for years. Tile came out in 2014, and Samsung has their own Galaxy tracker line for a while now. Neither have anti-stalking features o

Trackers have been around for years. Tile came out in 2014, and Samsung has their own Galaxy tracker line for a while now. Neither have anti-stalking features of any kind to this day. If one was stuck on your car, you wouldn't get an alert or any info on who placed it there, be you an iPhone user or an Android user. And before that, there were GPS trackers which have bigger batteries and were more accurate (if a bit larger and clumsier). But Apple apparently has done it with anti-stalking features but is too high-profile. We can have nice things even if they can get abused, stalkers are going to stalk and have superior alternatives without Apple. These new features are solely intended to scare them off into using their old methods. So if stalkers are going to do what they do anyway, I might as well find my items, thanks. Edit: Also, in your own point, you say "AirTags are cheaper than competing GPS trackers, most of which require subscriptions." Has a tracker costing too much ever stopped a stalker? For a creep, the difference between $25 one time and $10-20 a month for a more-accurate GPS tracker is unimportant. They'll pay the price of Netflix to continue their creepiness.

concinds 5y ago
> But Apple apparently has done it with anti-stalking features but is too high-profile. Remember that stalking isn't a profession; it's often a crime of opportunity, with plenty of reported cases of e.g. people slipping GPS trackers into spouses' cars/bags before or during divorces. Those people aren't sophisticated, and might go on Amazon and see Tiles that won't work (sparse detection network), or GPS trackers that cost the same as AirTags and have a monthly subscription. Or they could just pick a spare AirTag they have, and use that, because they know their spouse has an Android and wouldn't detect it. Again, the problem isn't that AirTags have been nerfed into uselessness because of anti-stalking protection. The problem is that AirTags still, to this day, present a major Android stalking risk (no AirTags notifications on Android with Apple's app, you have to manually scan), and Apple seems uninterested in doing anything about it (or even promising to do anything about it, since this announcement doesn't mention Android).
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  > Those people aren't sophisticated It is foolish to underestimate stalkers and stereotype it as just a crime of opportunity. > "problem is that AirTags still, to this day, present a major Android stalking risk" Ironically, so did Tile for the last 8 years, and Samsung's own Galaxy trackers for Android, but there is no outcry about them. Also, considering how long Tile has been on the market, this doesn't seem like a new issue. Also, Apple has built-in "Find My Friends" in iPhone. A stalker could just flip that on without telling the person being stalked (assuming he/she is close to him/her), and the phone would be tracking them, no tag necessary. Yet nobody ever hears about this being abused much. > "AirTags have been nerfed into uselessness because of anti-stalking protection" Hey, if I lose my wallet in my own home, it's great. If I can't find my wallet at the gas station, I can figure out where in the car it fell. There are plenty of ways it is still plenty useful. Also, if you are complaining about uselessness, maybe Apple should roll-back some anti-stalking protections but you'd be against that too. This leaves you in the impossible position of wanting Apple to restrict it more (reduce stalking) and simultaneously unlock it more (to improve utility), all while competitors don't bother with stalking prevention at all.
  - concinds 5y ago
    It feels like you're twisting my words. I never said Apple should unlock it more, I said they should discontinue it, and their executives displayed poor judgment in approving the product. I never argued that AirTags were nerfed into uselessness, I responded to your argument that they were nerfed into becoming useless for stalking, which I don't think is true. > Ironically, so did Tile for the last 8 years, and Samsung's own Galaxy trackers for Android, but there is no outcry about them Plenty of people have iPads catching dust in drawers, who would never have bought Android tablets (or any tablet) if the iPad had never existed. It's the power of Apple's marketing. Anytime I argue against AirTags, I argue that availability is a game-changer, and nobody actually tried to address this argument convincingly. - Someone at a club or rave might impulsively or drunkenly decide to remove the AirTag they use for their keyring, and slip it into someone's pocket. They might never have bought a tracker if Apple didn't have one. - Again, the iPad-catching-dust-in-a-drawer argument. Plenty of people buy Apple products on a whim who would never have considered that product category if the Apple product didn't exist. iPads popularized tablets, Apple Watches popularized smartwatches (at least among US teens), AirPods popularized bluetooth earphones). Apple's marketing doesn't just increase sales for their products, it promotes the entire product category. People hear about iPad, are interested, and might buy an iPad or a cheaper competitor; when they would never have bought a tablet if the iPad hadn't created a "halo effect". You can argue the effect is less for AirTags, but don't tell me it's nonexistent! - The copycat effect is strong among criminals. Ransomware attacks were almost nonexistent, and became common very rapidly, as awareness spread among criminals, as they rushed to take advantage of the opportunity before the crypto, legal, or antivirus ecosystems catch up and make it less rewarding. In 2009 around 1 in 13 stalkers used trackers of any kind; that number's surely gone up between 2009 and 2021 (AirTag release), but you really think that number won't go over the next few years, partly because of increased popular awareness of trackers? > It is foolish to underestimate stalkers and stereotype it as just a crime of opportunity. I said often a crime of opportunity, not always (or even mostly), and that those for whom it was a crime of opportunity, weren't sophisticated. The average bank robber might have done a good deal of research on bank security systems and circumvention. The average stalker might not think of using GPS tracking unless he's reminded of their existence, since there are so many other methods (likely, most stalking is online nowadays). Hence my "availability" argument.
vestrigi 5y ago
The barrier of entrance has not only been lowered on the cost side but also on the opportunity side. If people already own AirTags and know how to use them for legitimate purposes they just have to hide them somewhere to track somebody opposed to deciding to get a proper GPS tracker „just to find out where X is going to“.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  The risk of getting caught has also been raised considerably, however. An anonymous GPS tracker won't easily lead back to you personally, but an AirTag used for stalking will lead police to your door.
dylan604 5y ago
>Has a tracker costing too much ever stopped a stalker? Can you pay for that subscription of a tracker with an anonymous payment? If someone was to find a tracker, and even having to go through court orders of whatever type, the subscriber could be found out. I think that would be the bigger deterrent for a thinking stalker than the price as that's the cost of doing business. (shivers from making stalking out to be a sane thing) Lot's of plausible deniability, "oops, i lost that sometime ago, and totally forgot to play dark pattern UI games to end my auto-pay subscription. totally wasn't me, we swears it."
maxerickson 5y ago
That Apple trackers work well makes them worse, so yes, the high profile is a real factor.
rhinoceraptor 5y ago
> Neither have anti-stalking features of any kind to this day. Very true, the only real difference is that Airtags are simply a better product, but that means their use as stalking devices (along with their legitimate uses) is now much more practical and casual. I think the real long-term solution is for Apple to open up the U1 chip/protocol so at the very least Google/Tile/Samsung are able to implement the same countermeasures Apple has, if not use it in their own tracker devices. It would probably cost them revenue, but I imagine it would be worth it compared to the negative press they're getting from this, particularly since they're also making huge strategic missteps wrt App Store 3rd party payments.

concinds 5y ago

> But Apple apparently has done it with anti-stalking features but is too high-profile. Remember that stalking isn't a profession; it's often a crime of opportunity, with plenty of reported cases of e.g. people slipping GPS trackers into spouses' cars/bags before or during divorces. Those people aren't sophisticated, and might go on Amazon and see Tiles that won't work (sparse detection network), or GPS trackers that cost the same as AirTags and have a monthly subscription. Or they could just pick a spare AirTag they have, and use that, because they know their spouse has an Android and wouldn't detect it. Again, the problem isn't that AirTags have been nerfed into uselessness because of anti-stalking protection. The problem is that AirTags still, to this day, present a major Android stalking risk (no AirTags notifications on Android with Apple's app, you have to manually scan), and Apple seems uninterested in doing anything about it (or even promising to do anything about it, since this announcement doesn't mention Android).

gjsman-1000 5y ago
> Those people aren't sophisticated It is foolish to underestimate stalkers and stereotype it as just a crime of opportunity. > "problem is that AirTags still, to this day, present a major Android stalking risk" Ironically, so did Tile for the last 8 years, and Samsung's own Galaxy trackers for Android, but there is no outcry about them. Also, considering how long Tile has been on the market, this doesn't seem like a new issue. Also, Apple has built-in "Find My Friends" in iPhone. A stalker could just flip that on without telling the person being stalked (assuming he/she is close to him/her), and the phone would be tracking them, no tag necessary. Yet nobody ever hears about this being abused much. > "AirTags have been nerfed into uselessness because of anti-stalking protection" Hey, if I lose my wallet in my own home, it's great. If I can't find my wallet at the gas station, I can figure out where in the car it fell. There are plenty of ways it is still plenty useful. Also, if you are complaining about uselessness, maybe Apple should roll-back some anti-stalking protections but you'd be against that too. This leaves you in the impossible position of wanting Apple to restrict it more (reduce stalking) and simultaneously unlock it more (to improve utility), all while competitors don't bother with stalking prevention at all.
- concinds 5y ago
  It feels like you're twisting my words. I never said Apple should unlock it more, I said they should discontinue it, and their executives displayed poor judgment in approving the product. I never argued that AirTags were nerfed into uselessness, I responded to your argument that they were nerfed into becoming useless for stalking, which I don't think is true. > Ironically, so did Tile for the last 8 years, and Samsung's own Galaxy trackers for Android, but there is no outcry about them Plenty of people have iPads catching dust in drawers, who would never have bought Android tablets (or any tablet) if the iPad had never existed. It's the power of Apple's marketing. Anytime I argue against AirTags, I argue that availability is a game-changer, and nobody actually tried to address this argument convincingly. - Someone at a club or rave might impulsively or drunkenly decide to remove the AirTag they use for their keyring, and slip it into someone's pocket. They might never have bought a tracker if Apple didn't have one. - Again, the iPad-catching-dust-in-a-drawer argument. Plenty of people buy Apple products on a whim who would never have considered that product category if the Apple product didn't exist. iPads popularized tablets, Apple Watches popularized smartwatches (at least among US teens), AirPods popularized bluetooth earphones). Apple's marketing doesn't just increase sales for their products, it promotes the entire product category. People hear about iPad, are interested, and might buy an iPad or a cheaper competitor; when they would never have bought a tablet if the iPad hadn't created a "halo effect". You can argue the effect is less for AirTags, but don't tell me it's nonexistent! - The copycat effect is strong among criminals. Ransomware attacks were almost nonexistent, and became common very rapidly, as awareness spread among criminals, as they rushed to take advantage of the opportunity before the crypto, legal, or antivirus ecosystems catch up and make it less rewarding. In 2009 around 1 in 13 stalkers used trackers of any kind; that number's surely gone up between 2009 and 2021 (AirTag release), but you really think that number won't go over the next few years, partly because of increased popular awareness of trackers? > It is foolish to underestimate stalkers and stereotype it as just a crime of opportunity. I said often a crime of opportunity, not always (or even mostly), and that those for whom it was a crime of opportunity, weren't sophisticated. The average bank robber might have done a good deal of research on bank security systems and circumvention. The average stalker might not think of using GPS tracking unless he's reminded of their existence, since there are so many other methods (likely, most stalking is online nowadays). Hence my "availability" argument.

vestrigi 5y ago

The barrier of entrance has not only been lowered on the cost side but also on the opportunity side. If people already own AirTags and know how to use them for legitimate purposes they just have to hide them somewhere to track somebody opposed to deciding to get a proper GPS tracker „just to find out where X is going to“.

rootusrootus 5y ago
The risk of getting caught has also been raised considerably, however. An anonymous GPS tracker won't easily lead back to you personally, but an AirTag used for stalking will lead police to your door.

dylan604 5y ago

>Has a tracker costing too much ever stopped a stalker? Can you pay for that subscription of a tracker with an anonymous payment? If someone was to find a tracker, and even having to go through court orders of whatever type, the subscriber could be found out. I think that would be the bigger deterrent for a thinking stalker than the price as that's the cost of doing business. (shivers from making stalking out to be a sane thing) Lot's of plausible deniability, "oops, i lost that sometime ago, and totally forgot to play dark pattern UI games to end my auto-pay subscription. totally wasn't me, we swears it."

maxerickson 5y ago

That Apple trackers work well makes them worse, so yes, the high profile is a real factor.

rhinoceraptor 5y ago

> Neither have anti-stalking features of any kind to this day. Very true, the only real difference is that Airtags are simply a better product, but that means their use as stalking devices (along with their legitimate uses) is now much more practical and casual. I think the real long-term solution is for Apple to open up the U1 chip/protocol so at the very least Google/Tile/Samsung are able to implement the same countermeasures Apple has, if not use it in their own tracker devices. It would probably cost them revenue, but I imagine it would be worth it compared to the negative press they're getting from this, particularly since they're also making huge strategic missteps wrt App Store 3rd party payments.