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> This is a cost they factored into their HR budget in an attempt to impress and retain better employees; it is not done because companies are nice. There are
by Jiro 5y ago
> This is a cost they factored into their HR budget in an attempt to impress and retain better employees; it is not done because companies are nice.
There are things factored into budgets that you're still not supposed to do. Stores have a cost set aside for shoplifting. That doesn't mean you're supposed to go shoplifting.
>They are also always free to change their circumstances to hire you; it is never "literally impossible" to hire someone...
I was using that phrase in exactly the opposite way from how you seem to have misread it. The fact that it's not literally impossible doesn't matter, because it's practically impossible.
>If I was really interested in the job, and they end up hiring another candidate... Is that fair?
Proper social skills requires understanding what's going on in social situations even if you have not been told everything. In our world, one of those situations is knowing that you are supposed to be willing to accept the chance of not getting the job when you spend your time applying.
In the same situation, the company is not supposed to be willing to accept the risk of the jobseeker fraudulently expressing interest in a job in order to get the free plane flight.
Now, the thing is, these are unsaid. You are won't find a big sign saying "chance of not getting job acceptable, chance of fake jobseeker unacceptable". If you're one of those Internet literalists who says "well, they didn't explicitly prohibit it", both of those look pretty similar. This is why social skills are a thing. If you're at a party and the host says "take as much soda as you want", you're not supposed to get a box, put ten bottles of soda in it, and take that out to your car. That's not acceptable, and you're supposed to know it's not acceptable, without being told.
- remram 5y agoWow, that was just rude. You don't have to argue with me, but if you do I'd appreciate you doing it without insulting the social skills of perfect strangers. Obviously we disagree on what is proper... both for hiring and for Internet forums.
- Jiro 5y agoNot understanding the existence of unspoken social conventions that have no written rules and nothing explicitly preventing you from violating them, is the definition of poor social skills. And you did that on the forum, so people get to point it out on the forum.
- remram 5y agoI don't refute the existence of social conventions, I disagree about where the line is. I thought we were arguing about where it lies, and whether this is comparable to theft and whether that is a breach of said social norms. Then you assume your own conclusion I use that to lecture me and call me names. This is just not how arguing works. You and I are obviously of a different mind, that does not prove that I'm wrong and that certainly does not mean you get to be this rude. I am sorry you didn't convince me. Now let's go our separate way, though I feel another Kafka trap is coming...
- bduerst 5y agoGP here was not being rude, and addressing the tone is a way to avoid addressing the facts. Your story reads like sour grapes. The company you interviewed at was not dishonest with you, so it doesn't justify being dishonest back with them (or other companies).
- remram 5y agoWe are here having an argument about whether doing this is improper social etiquette and whether it is theft. Then jiro assumes that it is and uses that conclusion to use a condescending tone to compare me to shoplifters and lecture me on what "I'm supposed to be willing to accept" "in our world", calling me names such as "internet literalist". There is nothing further to be said. This is no longer an argument. We disagree, and that's fine, you don't have to be rude about it. I receive emails every week from AWS and others offering me to join this and that team, this and that "confidential project", asking me to call them or send a CV on every email I use on GitHub, PyPI, or HN. Would I feel bad to finally accept their non-stop pleas and tell them "no" face-to-face? Absolutely not. For your own information, I have never done it, to date.