6 ms·

> iPhone/Apple represents an example par excellence: Planned obsolescence, dated features, software deprecation, false narrative I feel like people say this an

> iPhone/Apple represents an example par excellence: Planned obsolescence, dated features, software deprecation, false narrative I feel like people say this and then don't provide any decent examples. iPhones hold value and are usable much longer than most Androids thanks to Apple's willingness to support the devices. HN loves to hate on Apple but I don't find these examples and arguments very compelling.

rglullis 5y ago
The mere fact that you believe that Android is the only alternative to an iPhone shows how effective the manipulation is.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  That's because for all practical purposes, it is. Name one bank or payment system in the developed world that released a native mobile app for KaiOS.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    First, name one bank that is not willing to provide you service if you don't have a smartphone. Even if you do find it, ask yourself if this is the type of bank that you really want to work with. Second, how was it that banks managed to operate for centuries and now there is the idea that people simply can not live without a mobile banking app? Third, minority rule[0]: the best way to make sure that we can see apps being develop for other platforms (not just KaiOS, but Linux devices and even ungoogled AOSP-based systems) is for us to cultivate the intolerant minorities who simply will refuse to run iOS/Android. Convenience is nice, but freedom is much better. [0]: https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
    - selfhoster11 5y ago
      > First, name one bank that is not willing to provide you service if you don't have a smartphone. Monzo comes to mind. Also possibly Revolut and Starling. > people simply can not live without a mobile banking app? The idea isn't that I'm not capable of banking without an app. An app offers concrete advantages such as being able to view your current account balance in real time, and view the amount of recent transactions. This lets you keep a handle on spending, possibly help with making ends meet if you are a student living on their own, or in poverty. Sure you can do it by hand, but only the most dedicated did it because it's a significant effort. > cultivate the intolerant minorities who simply will refuse to run iOS/Android. Good luck with that. I tried the dumbphone lifestyle, but ultimately not running Android or iOS will cut you off from basic services like Uber or public transit navigation/timetables (unless you are lucky), group chats with family and friends, and basic conveniences like said mobile banking. > Convenience is nice, but freedom is much better. With all due respect, no. We all have a threshold where it's just not worth it. I am not Stallman and I am not willing to put up with this much pain (or to rope my family and friends into my crusade by demanding they accede to my idea of "mobile purity").
      - rglullis 5y ago
        > An app offers concrete advantages such as being able to view your current account balance in real time, and view the amount of recent transactions. Do you really need that? Did you ever get into a situation where you couldn't wait to see your bank statement? Couldn't you wait to get to an ATM or just get home to see in your computer? How much of the things that are sold to us are really necessary? To get back to the topic: how much of the modern world is driven by manufactured demand? > Sure you can do it by hand, but only the most dedicated did it because it's a significant effort. False dichotomy. Plenty of budgeting/accounting software out there (free software, even) that you can use to connect to your bank account. They are just not made for mobile. > basic services like Uber Again, manufactured demand. There is nothing "basic" about Uber and we could go by in any big city without it before 2010. > public transit navigation/timetables There are free alternatives for Linux and ungoogled-android. > group chats with family Use Matrix, bridge it with whatever the others want to use. > We all have a threshold where it's just not worth it. Right. The problem is that you seem to be too quick to fold.
upsidesinclude 5y ago
Yeah, you have missed the entire point and evidently context. You have been sold a narrative, which you choose to believe. There is evidence, some of which I have referenced, that you ignore. Nothing will be compelling for you because you have attached worth to the brand and by extension of possession, inhabit that worth. This was the intent of the brand marketing. We are taking about marketing
rglullis 5y ago
> iPhones hold value. Really? How much? If you use your iPhone for two years, what would be the TCO? > are usable much longer Fairphone is supporting their devices for 5 years at a minimum. They promised 7 years for their latest model. And the Fairphone (who has the burden of promoting ethical manuafacturing, using only fair-sourced materials and fair pay to all their workers) still comes at less than half the price of the iPhone. Or say that you don't care about ethics and you just want your devices to be as cheap as possible. You can buy "budget premium" Androids (Moto Gs, Nokia 6/7) that are very serviceable for less than €200. The Nokia I bought in end-2018 would still be in use today if I hadn't gone to /e/OS, so €180 bought 4 years of "phone". Economically speaking, there is no way that an Apple device can beat that.
- llbeansandrice 5y ago
  > Fairphone These are really interesting and I hadn't seen them before thanks!
- countername 5y ago
  I think iPhones are on a different quality level than a FairPhone so you can't compare it 1:1
  - rglullis 5y ago
    They are absolutely on different categories. One is a device made by a company with a minimal ethical standard, which is not willing to sacrifice those for profits. The other is a trillion-dollar company that manages to convince billions of people world-wide that their products will make them smarter/more creative/just like the good guy on TV shows. This image and feel-good ads also gets them to convince people that is totally fine to pay hundreds/thousands of dollars to upgrade their devices while talking about "social good", "climate-conscious" and every fucking talking point of the "progressive/anti-capitalist" millenials. IOW, all the feel-good talk about issues gives them enough cover to get to exploit mass-scale consumerism. I wonder how they do that? Perhaps it's this thing called "marketing"?

rglullis 5y ago

The mere fact that you believe that Android is the only alternative to an iPhone shows how effective the manipulation is.

selfhoster11 5y ago
That's because for all practical purposes, it is. Name one bank or payment system in the developed world that released a native mobile app for KaiOS.
- rglullis 5y ago
  First, name one bank that is not willing to provide you service if you don't have a smartphone. Even if you do find it, ask yourself if this is the type of bank that you really want to work with. Second, how was it that banks managed to operate for centuries and now there is the idea that people simply can not live without a mobile banking app? Third, minority rule[0]: the best way to make sure that we can see apps being develop for other platforms (not just KaiOS, but Linux devices and even ungoogled AOSP-based systems) is for us to cultivate the intolerant minorities who simply will refuse to run iOS/Android. Convenience is nice, but freedom is much better. [0]: https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    > First, name one bank that is not willing to provide you service if you don't have a smartphone. Monzo comes to mind. Also possibly Revolut and Starling. > people simply can not live without a mobile banking app? The idea isn't that I'm not capable of banking without an app. An app offers concrete advantages such as being able to view your current account balance in real time, and view the amount of recent transactions. This lets you keep a handle on spending, possibly help with making ends meet if you are a student living on their own, or in poverty. Sure you can do it by hand, but only the most dedicated did it because it's a significant effort. > cultivate the intolerant minorities who simply will refuse to run iOS/Android. Good luck with that. I tried the dumbphone lifestyle, but ultimately not running Android or iOS will cut you off from basic services like Uber or public transit navigation/timetables (unless you are lucky), group chats with family and friends, and basic conveniences like said mobile banking. > Convenience is nice, but freedom is much better. With all due respect, no. We all have a threshold where it's just not worth it. I am not Stallman and I am not willing to put up with this much pain (or to rope my family and friends into my crusade by demanding they accede to my idea of "mobile purity").
    - rglullis 5y ago
      > An app offers concrete advantages such as being able to view your current account balance in real time, and view the amount of recent transactions. Do you really need that? Did you ever get into a situation where you couldn't wait to see your bank statement? Couldn't you wait to get to an ATM or just get home to see in your computer? How much of the things that are sold to us are really necessary? To get back to the topic: how much of the modern world is driven by manufactured demand? > Sure you can do it by hand, but only the most dedicated did it because it's a significant effort. False dichotomy. Plenty of budgeting/accounting software out there (free software, even) that you can use to connect to your bank account. They are just not made for mobile. > basic services like Uber Again, manufactured demand. There is nothing "basic" about Uber and we could go by in any big city without it before 2010. > public transit navigation/timetables There are free alternatives for Linux and ungoogled-android. > group chats with family Use Matrix, bridge it with whatever the others want to use. > We all have a threshold where it's just not worth it. Right. The problem is that you seem to be too quick to fold.

upsidesinclude 5y ago

Yeah, you have missed the entire point and evidently context. You have been sold a narrative, which you choose to believe. There is evidence, some of which I have referenced, that you ignore. Nothing will be compelling for you because you have attached worth to the brand and by extension of possession, inhabit that worth. This was the intent of the brand marketing. We are taking about marketing

rglullis 5y ago

> iPhones hold value. Really? How much? If you use your iPhone for two years, what would be the TCO? > are usable much longer Fairphone is supporting their devices for 5 years at a minimum. They promised 7 years for their latest model. And the Fairphone (who has the burden of promoting ethical manuafacturing, using only fair-sourced materials and fair pay to all their workers) still comes at less than half the price of the iPhone. Or say that you don't care about ethics and you just want your devices to be as cheap as possible. You can buy "budget premium" Androids (Moto Gs, Nokia 6/7) that are very serviceable for less than €200. The Nokia I bought in end-2018 would still be in use today if I hadn't gone to /e/OS, so €180 bought 4 years of "phone". Economically speaking, there is no way that an Apple device can beat that.

llbeansandrice 5y ago
> Fairphone These are really interesting and I hadn't seen them before thanks!
countername 5y ago
I think iPhones are on a different quality level than a FairPhone so you can't compare it 1:1
- rglullis 5y ago
  They are absolutely on different categories. One is a device made by a company with a minimal ethical standard, which is not willing to sacrifice those for profits. The other is a trillion-dollar company that manages to convince billions of people world-wide that their products will make them smarter/more creative/just like the good guy on TV shows. This image and feel-good ads also gets them to convince people that is totally fine to pay hundreds/thousands of dollars to upgrade their devices while talking about "social good", "climate-conscious" and every fucking talking point of the "progressive/anti-capitalist" millenials. IOW, all the feel-good talk about issues gives them enough cover to get to exploit mass-scale consumerism. I wonder how they do that? Perhaps it's this thing called "marketing"?