4 ms·

I cannot wait to check back in with you when you're trying to get a new job and negotiating salary. > If I want my employer to know what number Apple assigned

by smrz 5y ago

I cannot wait to check back in with you when you're trying to get a new job and negotiating salary. > If I want my employer to know what number Apple assigned me, I’ll tell them. Literally this article is about employers being like "hmm you told me this number but we don't believe you because Apple says its wrong"

theli0nheart 5y ago
> Literally this article is about employers being like "hmm you told me this number but we don't believe you because Apple says its wrong" Might have been a problem in the past, but now you can point them to this article.
- sangnoir 5y ago
  > Might have been a problem in the past, but now you can point them to this article. Background checks are frequently done by specialized 3rd party companies of varying levels of quality that don't communicate directly with the applicant, and have a lot of leeway to interpret if candidate was misrepresenting their past. You may not have the opportunity to point them to this article after being told a blanket "We regret to inform you that in accordance to clause 2(c) on the offer letter, we are withdrawing the offer of employment due to a verification failure during the background check."
- cgio 5y ago
  You may not have direct communication with the decision maker in such situations. The company that does the checks will just mark the exception and push to recruiter. Then depending on organisation a hiring manager may be making the final decision without you even knowing there is a variance. So there will be times when you can point no one to the article.
10000truths 5y ago
If your potential employer is fickle about such idiosyncrasies, then that's their shortcoming, not Apple's.
tinalumfoil 5y ago
Maybe, but my experience working mostly at smaller companies is that nobody really cares. If you say you’re a level X they’ll say, “okay prove it. Demonstrate through your accomplishments and knowledge you’re a level X” not “Prove it. Show us your documentation, citizen.” I also can’t imagine verifying or asking HR to verify someone’s level or salary. They’d start questioning if I understood the point of the interview.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  I also can’t imagine verifying or asking HR to verify someone’s level or salary. They’d start questioning if I understood the point of the interview. The whole prior salary thing is very touchy now, and in some states potential employers aren't allowed to ask. The company my wife works for will only confirm whether an employee was employed at a given date, or not. No salary information. No titles. Nothing other than a yes, or no.
  - ProAm 5y ago
    > in some states potential employers aren't allowed to ask. You dont need to when you can just look this up. Plenty of services offer this now. You're salary is pretty much public info. [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29834753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29834753
    - lupire 5y ago
      That's not public.
      - ProAm 5y ago
        It's essentially public for any serious employer doing background checks or verification.
  - ouEight12 5y ago
    > The company my wife works for will only confirm whether an employee was employed at a given date, or not. No salary information. No titles. Nothing other than a yes, or no. This is pretty common. My state is pretty liberal in terms of what's allowed legally, but even as far back as the 90s, the official party line in most shops was that you couldn't say more than "Joe was employeed here between 19xx and 19xx". And that's assuming you, as a persons former manager, were even supposed to take the call. Many shops had a "refer all inquiries to HR" rule and would only tell them the same basic answer. Unofficially, a common tactic was (and I believe still is, if recent experience is anything to go by) to to exploit the use of "personal references" as opposed to former Employers. Hope (or 'suggest') the candidate used a former co-worker as a personal reference, and then on the call ask things like "On a personal level, given the opportunity, would you look forward to working with Joe again?" Anything less than an enthusiastic "oh definitely" was a polite tip off that Joe was not someone you wanted in your shop.
paisawalla 5y ago
> I cannot wait to check back in with you when you're trying to get a new job and negotiating salary. Hi, checking in. Your current/previous salary is no business of your future employer. You don't have to share it, and it shouldn't form the basis of your future salary. If this seems alien, or improbable to you, people can and do learn how to tactfully steer conversations away from disadvantageous topics.
- pempem 5y ago
  People do manage to do so. In fact I work with folks to help them find the right words for this situation and others. Still a trend I'm seeing is occurring in negotiation. Specifically "do you have a counter you want us to match? prove it with an offer letter" orthogonal but still related.
  - lupire 5y ago
    That's not a new trend.
- Raineer 5y ago
  The fact that previous salary has anything to do with future salary comes from the same swamp of misinformation like "it's illegal to discuss your salary with your peers." My approach when dealing with future salary is to tell them my previous job paid me ((what I want from next job) - X %). Previous salary doesn't appear in the equation.
in_cahoots 5y ago
In my 4 negotiation experiences, my results when not offering a competing/previous salary have always been better than when a company tries to match a competitor. When a company tries to match, they want to offer the bare minimum over the competition (which often is a minimal increase if the competition is your current company). When I name my own salary companies offer me what I want to be paid.
fropie 5y ago
I work for a company with hidden internal levels and the only title is “Software Engineer”. It works fine.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

by smrz 5y ago

theli0nheart 5y ago

> Literally this article is about employers being like "hmm you told me this number but we don't believe you because Apple says its wrong" Might have been a problem in the past, but now you can point them to this article.

sangnoir 5y ago
> Might have been a problem in the past, but now you can point them to this article. Background checks are frequently done by specialized 3rd party companies of varying levels of quality that don't communicate directly with the applicant, and have a lot of leeway to interpret if candidate was misrepresenting their past. You may not have the opportunity to point them to this article after being told a blanket "We regret to inform you that in accordance to clause 2(c) on the offer letter, we are withdrawing the offer of employment due to a verification failure during the background check."
cgio 5y ago
You may not have direct communication with the decision maker in such situations. The company that does the checks will just mark the exception and push to recruiter. Then depending on organisation a hiring manager may be making the final decision without you even knowing there is a variance. So there will be times when you can point no one to the article.

10000truths 5y ago

If your potential employer is fickle about such idiosyncrasies, then that's their shortcoming, not Apple's.

tinalumfoil 5y ago

Maybe, but my experience working mostly at smaller companies is that nobody really cares. If you say you’re a level X they’ll say, “okay prove it. Demonstrate through your accomplishments and knowledge you’re a level X” not “Prove it. Show us your documentation, citizen.” I also can’t imagine verifying or asking HR to verify someone’s level or salary. They’d start questioning if I understood the point of the interview.

reaperducer 5y ago
I also can’t imagine verifying or asking HR to verify someone’s level or salary. They’d start questioning if I understood the point of the interview. The whole prior salary thing is very touchy now, and in some states potential employers aren't allowed to ask. The company my wife works for will only confirm whether an employee was employed at a given date, or not. No salary information. No titles. Nothing other than a yes, or no.
- ProAm 5y ago
  > in some states potential employers aren't allowed to ask. You dont need to when you can just look this up. Plenty of services offer this now. You're salary is pretty much public info. [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29834753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29834753
  - lupire 5y ago
    That's not public.
    - ProAm 5y ago
      It's essentially public for any serious employer doing background checks or verification.
- ouEight12 5y ago
  > The company my wife works for will only confirm whether an employee was employed at a given date, or not. No salary information. No titles. Nothing other than a yes, or no. This is pretty common. My state is pretty liberal in terms of what's allowed legally, but even as far back as the 90s, the official party line in most shops was that you couldn't say more than "Joe was employeed here between 19xx and 19xx". And that's assuming you, as a persons former manager, were even supposed to take the call. Many shops had a "refer all inquiries to HR" rule and would only tell them the same basic answer. Unofficially, a common tactic was (and I believe still is, if recent experience is anything to go by) to to exploit the use of "personal references" as opposed to former Employers. Hope (or 'suggest') the candidate used a former co-worker as a personal reference, and then on the call ask things like "On a personal level, given the opportunity, would you look forward to working with Joe again?" Anything less than an enthusiastic "oh definitely" was a polite tip off that Joe was not someone you wanted in your shop.

paisawalla 5y ago

> I cannot wait to check back in with you when you're trying to get a new job and negotiating salary. Hi, checking in. Your current/previous salary is no business of your future employer. You don't have to share it, and it shouldn't form the basis of your future salary. If this seems alien, or improbable to you, people can and do learn how to tactfully steer conversations away from disadvantageous topics.

pempem 5y ago
People do manage to do so. In fact I work with folks to help them find the right words for this situation and others. Still a trend I'm seeing is occurring in negotiation. Specifically "do you have a counter you want us to match? prove it with an offer letter" orthogonal but still related.
- lupire 5y ago
  That's not a new trend.
Raineer 5y ago
The fact that previous salary has anything to do with future salary comes from the same swamp of misinformation like "it's illegal to discuss your salary with your peers." My approach when dealing with future salary is to tell them my previous job paid me ((what I want from next job) - X %). Previous salary doesn't appear in the equation.

in_cahoots 5y ago

In my 4 negotiation experiences, my results when not offering a competing/previous salary have always been better than when a company tries to match a competitor. When a company tries to match, they want to offer the bare minimum over the competition (which often is a minimal increase if the competition is your current company). When I name my own salary companies offer me what I want to be paid.

fropie 5y ago

I work for a company with hidden internal levels and the only title is “Software Engineer”. It works fine.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]