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Why do the German people allow their government to do this kind of stuff? Do they want it?

by VWWHFSfQ 5y ago

YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
The stuff we are talking about is unconstitional in Germany so I guess yes we want it.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  To play devils advocate, both the constitutions of Germany and Japan were written by the United States and the other Allied Powers. We made sure to include restrictions that would otherwise not have had high enough citizen support to make it into an organically drafted constitution.
  - YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
    Yeah, I know we are just the Germany GmBH. What an idiotic statement.
GameOfFrowns 5y ago
colechristensen 5y ago
A lot of it is about banning Nazis. What do you think?
- thgaFa 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
    No we are talking about real Nazis the stuff we are talking about is unconstitutional in Germany.
  - zaarn 5y ago
    In this case it applies to a real nazi who's denying the Holocaust and spreading some barely-not-eugenics rhetoric... Not just "some truckers".
  - delecti 5y ago
    That's pretty "no true Scottsman". Some of the Ottawa protesters are waving swastika flags. If it walks like a duck and waves duck flags. Sources citing the presence of swastika flags, (linking multiple because a couple are paywalled): https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/10/world/canada/ottawa-truckers-protest.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/10/world/canada/ottawa-truck... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/thousands-protest-covid-mandates-and-restrictions-in-ottawa/2022/01/29/40a784b4-8133-11ec-8cc8-b696564ba796_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/thousands-protest-covid... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ottawa-covid-trucker-protest-mayor-declares-state-emergency-rcna15111 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ottawa-covid-trucker-prot...
    - gkalrq 5y ago
      The mainstream found 5 people (possibly provocateurs) with a Swastika flag and only published these pictures instead of the 10,000 other peaceful protesters. This is pure propaganda. I suggest you listen to the press conferences of the organizers on YouTube. They are nice people.
    - kache_ 5y ago
      The properties of a member of a set is not indicative of the entire set. Having ideological sacred cows is convenient for people who wish to discredit a section of the population, one that is underrepresented. You just identify one violator, and you can use the emotional reaction it invokes to carry forward that designation to the whole "problematic" group. I went out yesterday night and met many of the protestors; I was in town. They're just rural workers who are largely disenfranchised. I'm ethnic, and I was welcomed warmly. Maybe don't rely too much on platitudes built on political intent as a canonical source of information.
    - BitwiseFool 5y ago
      The key takeaway is that if someone wants to discredit a protest movement they should get a few goons to dress up in black, mask their faces, and get a Nazi flag. Have them stand near the protest area, get a photographer to snap a photo and then duck out quickly. The photo will spread, the media will pick it up, and a sizeable number of people will endlessly harp on the fact that a Nazi flag was present. It won't matter how many people were at the protest, or how long the demonstration lasted for. And no one in the media will apply the same contextualization that produced "fiery, but mostly peaceful".
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    Pretty bold to make the assumption that there aren't real Nazis in Germany. edit: if you were a Nazi and made it past 1953 in West Germany, the only likely further repercussion or punishment for anything you did was maybe an Israeli assassin, if you were famous.
    - _-david-_ 5y ago
      The person you are responding to did not say there aren't real Nazis in Germany. He used the word "Rarely".
thgaFa 5y ago
- YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
  Liar.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
progre 5y ago
> Do they want it? Does it matter? No mainstream party is going to legalize the Nazis again. At best they would look like they approve of nazis. Worst outcome is that nazis become political rivals.
martin_a 5y ago
I think everyone was fine until some of the people who are against the Covid regulations started with comparing the vaccinations to the holocaust, wearing stars which resembled the "Judenstern" given out by the Nazis with the word "unvaccinated" on them to demontrations and alike. You can do lots of crazy stuff and talk a lot of shit in Germany, but relavating the holocaust is off-bounds for good reason.
- gkalrq 5y ago
  I do not understand this logic. The "Judenstern" predated the Holocaust by a long time, so they are comparing mandatory vaccination to a slippery slope rather than the to end of the slope. The "Judenstern" is how it all started, i.e (in their view), by segregating clean and unclean groups with vaccine checks. It is insensitive, but by doing it they are clearly anti-Nazi. They are not belittling the Holocaust and they are not comparing vaccine mandates to the Holocaust.
  - zaarn 5y ago
    The Judenstern as referenced here is specifically the yellow star jews were forced to wear during and just before WW2. That is how they're entirely styled. The rhetoric that is used by people doing this is very much comparing vaccine mandates to the Nazi regime's crimes.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      If German law forbids people from drawing analogies to the Nazis and saying "this is bad, it looks like Nazi-ism and we shouldn't do this" then the law is truly backwards. The whole point of not denying the Holocaust is to learn generalizable lessons from it.
      - zaarn 5y ago
        Again, that is not what is happening here. The antivaxxers and covidiots who are running around with the yellow stars are trivializing or denying the holocaust with their actions. You are allowed to make analogies and say "this looks bad, looks like Nazi-ism". But putting on the yellow star is way and far above and beyond that, it is claiming your situation is as bad as the people in those camps. So unless Antivaxxers/Covidiots are being treated just as badle as people in those campls, it's trivializing the holocaust.
gtsop 5y ago
Do the people of your country have great control over what their government does and have the legal right to remove them when they are unhappy? What country is that, i wanna move there :)
NoGravitas 5y ago
I think largely the whole world, as well as the German people, benefit from preventing a resurgence of Nazism there.
pessimizer 5y ago
Do you live in a country that allows ISIS to communicate freely and openly? I live in the US, I know infinitely more people that have been hurt by rogue showerheads than ISIS, yet even publicly saying that you support them and their aims can get you put in prison. edit: "Shouting fire in a crowded theater" was a reason given for jailing US socialists who were protesting against the WWI draft.
- mannerheim 5y ago
  > edit: "Shouting fire in a crowded theater" was a reason given for jailing US socialists who were protesting against the WWI draft. This is no longer standing case law as it was overturned by Brandbenburg v. Ohio
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    Of course. Only mentioning it because the only explanation of the limits of free speech that an American can quote was formulated to keep peaceniks from passing out flyers.
    - mannerheim 5y ago
      It's an irrelevant exception because it hasn't been law for over half a century now.
Longhanks 5y ago
Because Germany is a representative democracy where you cannot change the minds of a few elected leaders for at least 3 more years, once elected. Also, Germans aren't really the kind of people to protest on the streets. They'd much rather complain and complain and maybe change the position of their cross on the next ballot to a party just a small tip further left or right, only to then start complaining that nothing ever really changes and readjust their cross in the opposite direction in the following election. This cycle repeats since about 70 years. So yes, if the Germans really did not want this kind of stuff, they would have to drastically change their votes. And bear in mind that the current government, which is the most dramatic change (to the left) in the last 16 years since the Merkel era, has already lost the goodwill according to surveys, with people already again favoring the Merkel party (e. g. said readjustment).
viktorcode 5y ago
They do. German public is overwhelmingly anti-nazi.

Why do the German people allow their government to do this kind of stuff? Do they want it?

YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago

The stuff we are talking about is unconstitional in Germany so I guess yes we want it.

BitwiseFool 5y ago
To play devils advocate, both the constitutions of Germany and Japan were written by the United States and the other Allied Powers. We made sure to include restrictions that would otherwise not have had high enough citizen support to make it into an organically drafted constitution.
- YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
  Yeah, I know we are just the Germany GmBH. What an idiotic statement.

GameOfFrowns 5y ago

colechristensen 5y ago

A lot of it is about banning Nazis. What do you think?

thgaFa 5y ago
[flagged]
- YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
  No we are talking about real Nazis the stuff we are talking about is unconstitutional in Germany.
- zaarn 5y ago
  In this case it applies to a real nazi who's denying the Holocaust and spreading some barely-not-eugenics rhetoric... Not just "some truckers".
- delecti 5y ago
  That's pretty "no true Scottsman". Some of the Ottawa protesters are waving swastika flags. If it walks like a duck and waves duck flags. Sources citing the presence of swastika flags, (linking multiple because a couple are paywalled): https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/10/world/canada/ottawa-truckers-protest.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/10/world/canada/ottawa-truck... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/thousands-protest-covid-mandates-and-restrictions-in-ottawa/2022/01/29/40a784b4-8133-11ec-8cc8-b696564ba796_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/thousands-protest-covid... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ottawa-covid-trucker-protest-mayor-declares-state-emergency-rcna15111 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ottawa-covid-trucker-prot...
  - gkalrq 5y ago
    The mainstream found 5 people (possibly provocateurs) with a Swastika flag and only published these pictures instead of the 10,000 other peaceful protesters. This is pure propaganda. I suggest you listen to the press conferences of the organizers on YouTube. They are nice people.
  - kache_ 5y ago
    The properties of a member of a set is not indicative of the entire set. Having ideological sacred cows is convenient for people who wish to discredit a section of the population, one that is underrepresented. You just identify one violator, and you can use the emotional reaction it invokes to carry forward that designation to the whole "problematic" group. I went out yesterday night and met many of the protestors; I was in town. They're just rural workers who are largely disenfranchised. I'm ethnic, and I was welcomed warmly. Maybe don't rely too much on platitudes built on political intent as a canonical source of information.
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    The key takeaway is that if someone wants to discredit a protest movement they should get a few goons to dress up in black, mask their faces, and get a Nazi flag. Have them stand near the protest area, get a photographer to snap a photo and then duck out quickly. The photo will spread, the media will pick it up, and a sizeable number of people will endlessly harp on the fact that a Nazi flag was present. It won't matter how many people were at the protest, or how long the demonstration lasted for. And no one in the media will apply the same contextualization that produced "fiery, but mostly peaceful".
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Pretty bold to make the assumption that there aren't real Nazis in Germany. edit: if you were a Nazi and made it past 1953 in West Germany, the only likely further repercussion or punishment for anything you did was maybe an Israeli assassin, if you were famous.
  - _-david-_ 5y ago
    The person you are responding to did not say there aren't real Nazis in Germany. He used the word "Rarely".

thgaFa 5y ago

YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
Liar.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

progre 5y ago

> Do they want it? Does it matter? No mainstream party is going to legalize the Nazis again. At best they would look like they approve of nazis. Worst outcome is that nazis become political rivals.

martin_a 5y ago

I think everyone was fine until some of the people who are against the Covid regulations started with comparing the vaccinations to the holocaust, wearing stars which resembled the "Judenstern" given out by the Nazis with the word "unvaccinated" on them to demontrations and alike. You can do lots of crazy stuff and talk a lot of shit in Germany, but relavating the holocaust is off-bounds for good reason.

gkalrq 5y ago
I do not understand this logic. The "Judenstern" predated the Holocaust by a long time, so they are comparing mandatory vaccination to a slippery slope rather than the to end of the slope. The "Judenstern" is how it all started, i.e (in their view), by segregating clean and unclean groups with vaccine checks. It is insensitive, but by doing it they are clearly anti-Nazi. They are not belittling the Holocaust and they are not comparing vaccine mandates to the Holocaust.
- zaarn 5y ago
  The Judenstern as referenced here is specifically the yellow star jews were forced to wear during and just before WW2. That is how they're entirely styled. The rhetoric that is used by people doing this is very much comparing vaccine mandates to the Nazi regime's crimes.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    If German law forbids people from drawing analogies to the Nazis and saying "this is bad, it looks like Nazi-ism and we shouldn't do this" then the law is truly backwards. The whole point of not denying the Holocaust is to learn generalizable lessons from it.
    - zaarn 5y ago
      Again, that is not what is happening here. The antivaxxers and covidiots who are running around with the yellow stars are trivializing or denying the holocaust with their actions. You are allowed to make analogies and say "this looks bad, looks like Nazi-ism". But putting on the yellow star is way and far above and beyond that, it is claiming your situation is as bad as the people in those camps. So unless Antivaxxers/Covidiots are being treated just as badle as people in those campls, it's trivializing the holocaust.

gtsop 5y ago

Do the people of your country have great control over what their government does and have the legal right to remove them when they are unhappy? What country is that, i wanna move there :)

NoGravitas 5y ago

I think largely the whole world, as well as the German people, benefit from preventing a resurgence of Nazism there.

pessimizer 5y ago

Do you live in a country that allows ISIS to communicate freely and openly? I live in the US, I know infinitely more people that have been hurt by rogue showerheads than ISIS, yet even publicly saying that you support them and their aims can get you put in prison. edit: "Shouting fire in a crowded theater" was a reason given for jailing US socialists who were protesting against the WWI draft.

mannerheim 5y ago
> edit: "Shouting fire in a crowded theater" was a reason given for jailing US socialists who were protesting against the WWI draft. This is no longer standing case law as it was overturned by Brandbenburg v. Ohio
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Of course. Only mentioning it because the only explanation of the limits of free speech that an American can quote was formulated to keep peaceniks from passing out flyers.
  - mannerheim 5y ago
    It's an irrelevant exception because it hasn't been law for over half a century now.

Longhanks 5y ago

Because Germany is a representative democracy where you cannot change the minds of a few elected leaders for at least 3 more years, once elected. Also, Germans aren't really the kind of people to protest on the streets. They'd much rather complain and complain and maybe change the position of their cross on the next ballot to a party just a small tip further left or right, only to then start complaining that nothing ever really changes and readjust their cross in the opposite direction in the following election. This cycle repeats since about 70 years. So yes, if the Germans really did not want this kind of stuff, they would have to drastically change their votes. And bear in mind that the current government, which is the most dramatic change (to the left) in the last 16 years since the Merkel era, has already lost the goodwill according to surveys, with people already again favoring the Merkel party (e. g. said readjustment).

viktorcode 5y ago

They do. German public is overwhelmingly anti-nazi.