5 ms·

For comparison: 14 or 15 killings by police in Germany in 2019 (depending on the source). Germany has ~80 million inhabitants, compared to the ~330 million in t

by ocius 5y ago

For comparison: 14 or 15 killings by police in Germany in 2019 (depending on the source). Germany has ~80 million inhabitants, compared to the ~330 million in the US, so you'd expect roughly 60 killings by police in the US if the level of violence was similar. The English Wikipedia entry lists the circumstances for each killing by German police forces: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... The German version talks of 15 killings for 2019.

MisterTea 5y ago
There are so many guns in the USA the police simply shoot first and ask questions later rather than trying to de-escalate and become victims in the process. We just had two cops shot dead in the Bronx responding to a domestic dispute between a middle aged man and his elderly mother. This is the grim reality we've been building in the USA.
- slowhand09 5y ago
  Number of guns isn't the issue IMHO. The number of people who don't follow basic instructions is. "Put your hands on the wheel. Or put your hands up. Also, the number who want to argue and resist. If you've been told to drop the gun on the ground in front of you, but choose to wave it instead, you should expect you will be disarmed, even if it results in your death. Reaction time kills.
  - bastawhiz 5y ago
    Do you have data that supports this?
    - slowhand09 5y ago
      I've watched numerous bodycam videos where people were told to do something to make themselves and the officers safer. They mostly show the ones that go bad. How often do you see a posted video where a person laid down the weapon and followed instructions? Rarely, because they rarely go bad. Not saying there aren't screwups, because obviously there are. Amir Locke (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWCpkPBKFR0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWCpkPBKFR0) for example appears to be a terrible result of a poor practice, No knock warrants. This one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ1mo-ecOzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ1mo-ecOzI) is an example of not following direction. There is no shortage of evidence if you look for it instead of having it spoon-fed by the media. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cops+shoots https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cops+shoots
      - cagey 5y ago
        I've been watching https://www.youtube.com/c/PoliceActivity/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/PoliceActivity/videos (publisher of police body-cam deadly-force-used incident videos) for a long time, and from that sampling it seems that the number of police shootings (a significant proportion of which result in a non-police fatality) that can be reasonably labeled "suicide by cop" (or similar mental health related) is disturbingly high. A recurring scenario: 911 call of suspect brandishing a knife -> suspect charges responding police officers while brandishing the knife in an attacking manner and yelling "shoot me". Police policy and training clearly allows (supports) officers in this situation to shoot their attacker, and also clearly enables them to continue firing until there is no doubt that said attacker is absolutely no threat to anyone in the vicinity.
      - trs8080 5y ago
        > There is no shortage of evidence if you look for it instead of having it spoon-fed by the media. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cops+shoots https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cops+shoots literally all of the videos in that search are coming from broadcast media sources. have you considered that police are also much less likely to release bodycam footage to the media if it portrays them in a negative light?
      - bastawhiz 5y ago
        That's not data though, that's anecdotes. A handful of videos is hardly a fair sampling of a thousand incidents per year. The videos that percolate up are going to be the exceptional circumstances either way. Are there hard numbers you can point to that are published by folks other than the departments themselves?
  - mcphage 5y ago
    What if you're asleep in your bed and the police burst in looking for someone else?
  - disgu 5y ago
    I'm sorry, but this sounds like someone who has never been to another country or seen how police works in other countries. I'm of course talking about comparable western countries (which are all way safer than the US, I believe). Instead of looking how the police could be improved you really think it's the people who interact with police? It doesn't have anything to do with the lousy few weeks of training police get? The fact that they're often uneducated, the fact that bad behavior goes unpunished and everything else that is wrong with the US' system? It's the people?
    - slowhand09 5y ago
      I've been to Germany, Austria, England, Mexico, most of the Caribbean. What I've observed in other countries is a general higher level of civility and respect for police. People don't curse at them, generally. And police typically don't put up with what US police often do. You want the police to improve. I want society to improve. That includes the police. And improvement doesn't mean teaching everybody to whip out a cellphone to try and catch an officer not being perfect.
tonyedgecombe 5y ago
Just two in the UK during 2021. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom#2020s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc...

by ocius 5y ago

MisterTea 5y ago

There are so many guns in the USA the police simply shoot first and ask questions later rather than trying to de-escalate and become victims in the process. We just had two cops shot dead in the Bronx responding to a domestic dispute between a middle aged man and his elderly mother. This is the grim reality we've been building in the USA.

slowhand09 5y ago
Number of guns isn't the issue IMHO. The number of people who don't follow basic instructions is. "Put your hands on the wheel. Or put your hands up. Also, the number who want to argue and resist. If you've been told to drop the gun on the ground in front of you, but choose to wave it instead, you should expect you will be disarmed, even if it results in your death. Reaction time kills.
- bastawhiz 5y ago
  Do you have data that supports this?
  - slowhand09 5y ago
    I've watched numerous bodycam videos where people were told to do something to make themselves and the officers safer. They mostly show the ones that go bad. How often do you see a posted video where a person laid down the weapon and followed instructions? Rarely, because they rarely go bad. Not saying there aren't screwups, because obviously there are. Amir Locke (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWCpkPBKFR0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWCpkPBKFR0) for example appears to be a terrible result of a poor practice, No knock warrants. This one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ1mo-ecOzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ1mo-ecOzI) is an example of not following direction. There is no shortage of evidence if you look for it instead of having it spoon-fed by the media. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cops+shoots https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cops+shoots
    - cagey 5y ago
      I've been watching https://www.youtube.com/c/PoliceActivity/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/PoliceActivity/videos (publisher of police body-cam deadly-force-used incident videos) for a long time, and from that sampling it seems that the number of police shootings (a significant proportion of which result in a non-police fatality) that can be reasonably labeled "suicide by cop" (or similar mental health related) is disturbingly high. A recurring scenario: 911 call of suspect brandishing a knife -> suspect charges responding police officers while brandishing the knife in an attacking manner and yelling "shoot me". Police policy and training clearly allows (supports) officers in this situation to shoot their attacker, and also clearly enables them to continue firing until there is no doubt that said attacker is absolutely no threat to anyone in the vicinity.
    - trs8080 5y ago
      > There is no shortage of evidence if you look for it instead of having it spoon-fed by the media. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cops+shoots https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cops+shoots literally all of the videos in that search are coming from broadcast media sources. have you considered that police are also much less likely to release bodycam footage to the media if it portrays them in a negative light?
    - bastawhiz 5y ago
      That's not data though, that's anecdotes. A handful of videos is hardly a fair sampling of a thousand incidents per year. The videos that percolate up are going to be the exceptional circumstances either way. Are there hard numbers you can point to that are published by folks other than the departments themselves?
- mcphage 5y ago
  What if you're asleep in your bed and the police burst in looking for someone else?
- disgu 5y ago
  I'm sorry, but this sounds like someone who has never been to another country or seen how police works in other countries. I'm of course talking about comparable western countries (which are all way safer than the US, I believe). Instead of looking how the police could be improved you really think it's the people who interact with police? It doesn't have anything to do with the lousy few weeks of training police get? The fact that they're often uneducated, the fact that bad behavior goes unpunished and everything else that is wrong with the US' system? It's the people?
  - slowhand09 5y ago
    I've been to Germany, Austria, England, Mexico, most of the Caribbean. What I've observed in other countries is a general higher level of civility and respect for police. People don't curse at them, generally. And police typically don't put up with what US police often do. You want the police to improve. I want society to improve. That includes the police. And improvement doesn't mean teaching everybody to whip out a cellphone to try and catch an officer not being perfect.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago

Just two in the UK during 2021. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom#2020s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc...