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Exactly. If this make European startups build their own ecosystem and provides me with an alternative for the services I use but don't track me, I'm going to sw

Exactly. If this make European startups build their own ecosystem and provides me with an alternative for the services I use but don't track me, I'm going to switch - simple as. I see this as a win for the internet.

mediascreen 5y ago
Why limit it to the EU? Shouldn't every country have their own AWS, Azure and Google Cloud? I think we underestimate just how difficult it is just to replicate existing services, let alone keep up with the innovation. It's like the Argentinian effort to stimulate its own computer manufacturing by banning Apple products.
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  It'd help if the United States wasn't allowed to aggressively brain drain most of the rest of the world.
  - visarga 5y ago
    That's nice for countries and bad for people.
  - crehn 5y ago
    It’d help if the rest of the world tried to aggressively prevent brain drain by making the respective countries more attractive for work.
    - pvarangot 5y ago
      Or by making getting citizenship something that's attainable in my lifetime. Everyone complains about the US immigration system and of course it's not great but when I came here I kinda knew what the path forward was and how long stuff will take, for a lot of European countries there's no way to ever get citizenship and the path to permanent residency changes every three or four years.
      - maccolgan 5y ago
        Why are you importing New World thinking to the Old World?
      - rendall 5y ago
        In what European country specifically is there no way to ever get citizenship?
        dmitriid 5y ago
        I guess Switzerland. Pretty much every other country offers you citizenship after a time.
        snovv_crash 5y ago
        Switzerland is 10 years and then you need to pass a language and general knowledge test. The contents of the test depend on the region you live. Honestly I don't see it as that ridiculous.
        dmitriid 5y ago
        I heard stories that it's still nigh impossible because you need good references from your local commune, and those are really hard to get. Note: I'm only spreading rumors :)
        snovv_crash 5y ago
        Well, the exact requirements depend on the canton and commune you happen to be in. If you're in a village in Appenzell Innerrhoden it's going to be more tricky than if you're in one of the more international cities like Basel, Zürich, Geneva etc.
        pvarangot 5y ago
        Switzerland and some nordic countries make it impossible. Portugal wants me to marry a Citizen, otherwise it's only residency. Luxembourg and the Netherlands wants me to learn their language, which is not something I would need to work there and in my experience visiting neither to be able to live there. It's not great. On the other hand Italy denied my application once already, after my great grandparents basically left the country because Italy was not defending their town from Germany. They rejected my application because they say my great grandparents were not Italian but Austro-Hungarians. The lady at the consulate was super racist to my grandmother about it, in my face. After that now there's another way I could get my Italian citizenship by birthright by suing the government because of another racist thing they use to do where women were not transferring citizenship. Again the US is not great but a lot of this things make me feel whatever "racial tensions" I may be a victim of in the US are mostly the media blowing stuff out of proportion, when most of the "racial tensions" I felt dealing with the EU are actual racial violence or discrimination that either me or my family where victims of.
    - gwright 5y ago
      > It’d help if the rest of the world tried to aggressively prevent brain drain What does that mean? Are you suggesting that countries should control where their citizens choose to work/live?
  - toqy 5y ago
    The rest of the world could also brain drain the US if it was easier to get into. The US -> EU/UK immigrants that I personally know have had a pretty hard time getting there permanently.
    - withinboredom 5y ago
      I moved from the US to the NL. Love it but I can’t get dual citizenship and getting permanent residence requires knowing the language well enough to pass a test, so why stay? It’s kind of a bummer because my son speaks native-fluent Dutch now. Next up will probably be Ireland.
      - freeflight 5y ago
        > Love it but I can’t get dual citizenship and getting permanent residence requires knowing the language well enough to pass a test, so why stay? Why did you move there in the first place, raising a kid there, when just learning the language is apparently a hurdle too big to take?
        withinboredom 5y ago
        Learning the language isn’t the issue, learning the language well enough to pass a test when classes cost nearly €2k a pop is the issue.
        smoe 5y ago
        To my knowledge to get naturalization in the Netherlands you must have stayed there for ~5 years and the required language level is A2, which is beginner level. This doesn't sound like a crazy requirement to me. The giving up other nationalities would be a deal breaker for me thought.
      - asdadsdad 5y ago
        Well, if you don't even bother to learn the language of the country you want to become a citizen of, then, yes, why stay indeed...
  - FredPret 5y ago
    Countries do not own their citizens. If they want their brainy citizens to stay, they should incentivize them. The US is "allowed" to offer whatever it wants for people to move there.
- ATsch 5y ago
  > Why limit it to the EU? Shouldn't every country have their own AWS, Azure and Google Cloud? That is completely unrelated though. The only thing this ruling confirms is that you can not process data of EU residents when you can not be adequately protect them due to local laws i.e. the CLOUD act. If your laws allow you to keep the data safe, you can offer your cloud services to the EU market as much as you want. If they wanted to, the US could easily allow companies to guarantee those protections too. I would not be surprised when, if no solution is found, some of the major cloud providers in the EU end up being e.g. japanese, israeli or canadian.
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  > Why limit it to the EU? Shouldn't every country have their own AWS, Azure and Google Cloud? Careful, there is such a thing as network effect for knowledge. More fractured systems mean more different approaches means less aftermarket documentation means less people being able to work for you.
  - baridbelmedar 5y ago
    I happen to be European but with that said, I also get the feeling that many western European HN-users here seem to fancy the idea of having many small local service providers that have challenges providing anything beyond basic hosting. And that totally fine, if you think European companies have no competitive disadvantage on the global market to being forced to use traditional VPS providers or build and set up everything themselves. But I imagine it'd be very challenging if other companies outside the EU can go to market faster, deliver better services for lower cost, etc. than their European counterparts because they can use American cloud providers like GCP or AWS.
    - DocTomoe 5y ago
      In all fairness, the faster, better, cheaper argument sounds too much like marketeese to me, and I have not yet seen that effect in real life. You can find dedicated people who are sufficiently good to manage some Linux server infrastructure relatively easily - all while AWS consultancies seem to pop up all over the place like mushrooms after a rain.
- bee_rider 5y ago
  The EU as a block is pretty comparable to the US, so it wouldn't be that surprising if they came up with their own information infrastructure. I think you've answered your own question: why limit it to the EU? No moral reason, but it is a difficult project, you need a US/EU/China sized economy to have a good chance to pull it off.
native_samples 5y ago
Unfortunately, you will find that they'll "track" you just the same, but provide worse service due to smaller economies of scale.
esyir 5y ago
Sounds like protectionism when they can't compete. The EU isn't exactly a shining star for tech development, probably because the culture there kneecaps it every step of the way.

mediascreen 5y ago

Why limit it to the EU? Shouldn't every country have their own AWS, Azure and Google Cloud? I think we underestimate just how difficult it is just to replicate existing services, let alone keep up with the innovation. It's like the Argentinian effort to stimulate its own computer manufacturing by banning Apple products.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago
It'd help if the United States wasn't allowed to aggressively brain drain most of the rest of the world.
- visarga 5y ago
  That's nice for countries and bad for people.
- crehn 5y ago
  It’d help if the rest of the world tried to aggressively prevent brain drain by making the respective countries more attractive for work.
  - pvarangot 5y ago
    Or by making getting citizenship something that's attainable in my lifetime. Everyone complains about the US immigration system and of course it's not great but when I came here I kinda knew what the path forward was and how long stuff will take, for a lot of European countries there's no way to ever get citizenship and the path to permanent residency changes every three or four years.
    - maccolgan 5y ago
      Why are you importing New World thinking to the Old World?
    - rendall 5y ago
      In what European country specifically is there no way to ever get citizenship?
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        I guess Switzerland. Pretty much every other country offers you citizenship after a time.
        snovv_crash 5y ago
        Switzerland is 10 years and then you need to pass a language and general knowledge test. The contents of the test depend on the region you live. Honestly I don't see it as that ridiculous.
        dmitriid 5y ago
        I heard stories that it's still nigh impossible because you need good references from your local commune, and those are really hard to get. Note: I'm only spreading rumors :)
        snovv_crash 5y ago
        Well, the exact requirements depend on the canton and commune you happen to be in. If you're in a village in Appenzell Innerrhoden it's going to be more tricky than if you're in one of the more international cities like Basel, Zürich, Geneva etc.
      - pvarangot 5y ago
        Switzerland and some nordic countries make it impossible. Portugal wants me to marry a Citizen, otherwise it's only residency. Luxembourg and the Netherlands wants me to learn their language, which is not something I would need to work there and in my experience visiting neither to be able to live there. It's not great. On the other hand Italy denied my application once already, after my great grandparents basically left the country because Italy was not defending their town from Germany. They rejected my application because they say my great grandparents were not Italian but Austro-Hungarians. The lady at the consulate was super racist to my grandmother about it, in my face. After that now there's another way I could get my Italian citizenship by birthright by suing the government because of another racist thing they use to do where women were not transferring citizenship. Again the US is not great but a lot of this things make me feel whatever "racial tensions" I may be a victim of in the US are mostly the media blowing stuff out of proportion, when most of the "racial tensions" I felt dealing with the EU are actual racial violence or discrimination that either me or my family where victims of.
  - gwright 5y ago
    > It’d help if the rest of the world tried to aggressively prevent brain drain What does that mean? Are you suggesting that countries should control where their citizens choose to work/live?
- toqy 5y ago
  The rest of the world could also brain drain the US if it was easier to get into. The US -> EU/UK immigrants that I personally know have had a pretty hard time getting there permanently.
  - withinboredom 5y ago
    I moved from the US to the NL. Love it but I can’t get dual citizenship and getting permanent residence requires knowing the language well enough to pass a test, so why stay? It’s kind of a bummer because my son speaks native-fluent Dutch now. Next up will probably be Ireland.
    - freeflight 5y ago
      > Love it but I can’t get dual citizenship and getting permanent residence requires knowing the language well enough to pass a test, so why stay? Why did you move there in the first place, raising a kid there, when just learning the language is apparently a hurdle too big to take?
      - withinboredom 5y ago
        Learning the language isn’t the issue, learning the language well enough to pass a test when classes cost nearly €2k a pop is the issue.
        smoe 5y ago
        To my knowledge to get naturalization in the Netherlands you must have stayed there for ~5 years and the required language level is A2, which is beginner level. This doesn't sound like a crazy requirement to me. The giving up other nationalities would be a deal breaker for me thought.
    - asdadsdad 5y ago
      Well, if you don't even bother to learn the language of the country you want to become a citizen of, then, yes, why stay indeed...
- FredPret 5y ago
  Countries do not own their citizens. If they want their brainy citizens to stay, they should incentivize them. The US is "allowed" to offer whatever it wants for people to move there.
ATsch 5y ago
> Why limit it to the EU? Shouldn't every country have their own AWS, Azure and Google Cloud? That is completely unrelated though. The only thing this ruling confirms is that you can not process data of EU residents when you can not be adequately protect them due to local laws i.e. the CLOUD act. If your laws allow you to keep the data safe, you can offer your cloud services to the EU market as much as you want. If they wanted to, the US could easily allow companies to guarantee those protections too. I would not be surprised when, if no solution is found, some of the major cloud providers in the EU end up being e.g. japanese, israeli or canadian.
DocTomoe 5y ago
> Why limit it to the EU? Shouldn't every country have their own AWS, Azure and Google Cloud? Careful, there is such a thing as network effect for knowledge. More fractured systems mean more different approaches means less aftermarket documentation means less people being able to work for you.
- baridbelmedar 5y ago
  I happen to be European but with that said, I also get the feeling that many western European HN-users here seem to fancy the idea of having many small local service providers that have challenges providing anything beyond basic hosting. And that totally fine, if you think European companies have no competitive disadvantage on the global market to being forced to use traditional VPS providers or build and set up everything themselves. But I imagine it'd be very challenging if other companies outside the EU can go to market faster, deliver better services for lower cost, etc. than their European counterparts because they can use American cloud providers like GCP or AWS.
  - DocTomoe 5y ago
    In all fairness, the faster, better, cheaper argument sounds too much like marketeese to me, and I have not yet seen that effect in real life. You can find dedicated people who are sufficiently good to manage some Linux server infrastructure relatively easily - all while AWS consultancies seem to pop up all over the place like mushrooms after a rain.
bee_rider 5y ago
The EU as a block is pretty comparable to the US, so it wouldn't be that surprising if they came up with their own information infrastructure. I think you've answered your own question: why limit it to the EU? No moral reason, but it is a difficult project, you need a US/EU/China sized economy to have a good chance to pull it off.

native_samples 5y ago

Unfortunately, you will find that they'll "track" you just the same, but provide worse service due to smaller economies of scale.

esyir 5y ago

Sounds like protectionism when they can't compete. The EU isn't exactly a shining star for tech development, probably because the culture there kneecaps it every step of the way.