4 ms·

I'm really sad that Dart didn't make it as Javascript replacement. It's much better designed language, but didn't get traction.

BoorishBears 5y ago
Dart is not fhat much better. In a period where most languages are experiencing a "rebirth" as a well thought out modern language, Dart feels like the "before" waiting for an "after". I'd be deeply disappointed if we had progressed from Js to Dart, and it's why I'm not a fan of Flutter (Java => Kotlin, Obj C => Swift, Js => Ts, Erlang => Elixr, etc.)
- pjmlp 5y ago
  > Java => Kotlin, If you are speaking of Android, yes. On the JVM is it just one more guest on the building. https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pull_requests/2021/4 https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pull_requests/2021/4
  - BoorishBears 5y ago
    Not really... Groovy was never really in the building and is just awful. Scala is like a reimagining of the building that happened to find the old foundation useful. Clojure is like a skybridge from the Lisp skyscraper across the way. Kotlin is the only JVM language that's gained traction while aiming to be Java but better, the rest just happen to use the JVM, but calling them "evolutions" of Java would be deeply misleading.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      It gained traction on Android thanks to Google pushing it over their creptic Java implementation, while pretending anything beyond Java 8 never happened. It will follow the path of every other JVM guest language. I will care when the JVM gets a single line of Kotlin commit. Google should just buy JetBrains and rename ART into KVM.
      - BoorishBears 5y ago
        This is being too charitable to Java imo, after all we had stuff like Retrolambda at the time. Kotlin exists because Java moved like molasses for years If Java had moved like C# it'd be a much nicer language today, and Kotlin wouldn't be needed. Even comparing Kotlin 1.0 to today's Java nearly 6 years later would favor Kotlin for ergonomics with stdlib, nullability, reified generics, and syntax
        pjmlp 5y ago
        Retrolambda, yet another kludge, instead of invokedynamic calls. Kotlin exists because JetBrains wants your money, that is all. > The next thing is also fairly straightforward: we expect Kotlin to drive the sales of IntelliJ IDEA. We’re working on a new language, but we do not plan to replace the entire ecosystem of libraries that have been built for the JVM. So you’re likely to keep using Spring and Hibernate, or other similar frameworks, in your projects built with Kotlin. And while the development tools for Kotlin itself are going to be free and open-source, the support for the enterprise development frameworks and tools will remain part of IntelliJ IDEA Ultimate, the commercial version of the IDE. And of course the framework support will be fully integrated with Kotlin. https://blog.jetbrains.com/kotlin/2011/08/why-jetbrains-needs-kotlin/ https://blog.jetbrains.com/kotlin/2011/08/why-jetbrains-need... Outside Android, I will care about Kotlin when KVM becomes an unavoidable reality, until then, it can party with Beanshell, jTCL, Jython, JRuby, Scala. Closjure, Groovy, Frege, and plenty of other ones, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JVM_languages https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JVM_languages

BoorishBears 5y ago

Dart is not fhat much better. In a period where most languages are experiencing a "rebirth" as a well thought out modern language, Dart feels like the "before" waiting for an "after". I'd be deeply disappointed if we had progressed from Js to Dart, and it's why I'm not a fan of Flutter (Java => Kotlin, Obj C => Swift, Js => Ts, Erlang => Elixr, etc.)

pjmlp 5y ago
> Java => Kotlin, If you are speaking of Android, yes. On the JVM is it just one more guest on the building. https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pull_requests/2021/4 https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pull_requests/2021/4
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  Not really... Groovy was never really in the building and is just awful. Scala is like a reimagining of the building that happened to find the old foundation useful. Clojure is like a skybridge from the Lisp skyscraper across the way. Kotlin is the only JVM language that's gained traction while aiming to be Java but better, the rest just happen to use the JVM, but calling them "evolutions" of Java would be deeply misleading.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    It gained traction on Android thanks to Google pushing it over their creptic Java implementation, while pretending anything beyond Java 8 never happened. It will follow the path of every other JVM guest language. I will care when the JVM gets a single line of Kotlin commit. Google should just buy JetBrains and rename ART into KVM.
    - BoorishBears 5y ago
      This is being too charitable to Java imo, after all we had stuff like Retrolambda at the time. Kotlin exists because Java moved like molasses for years If Java had moved like C# it'd be a much nicer language today, and Kotlin wouldn't be needed. Even comparing Kotlin 1.0 to today's Java nearly 6 years later would favor Kotlin for ergonomics with stdlib, nullability, reified generics, and syntax
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        Retrolambda, yet another kludge, instead of invokedynamic calls. Kotlin exists because JetBrains wants your money, that is all. > The next thing is also fairly straightforward: we expect Kotlin to drive the sales of IntelliJ IDEA. We’re working on a new language, but we do not plan to replace the entire ecosystem of libraries that have been built for the JVM. So you’re likely to keep using Spring and Hibernate, or other similar frameworks, in your projects built with Kotlin. And while the development tools for Kotlin itself are going to be free and open-source, the support for the enterprise development frameworks and tools will remain part of IntelliJ IDEA Ultimate, the commercial version of the IDE. And of course the framework support will be fully integrated with Kotlin. https://blog.jetbrains.com/kotlin/2011/08/why-jetbrains-needs-kotlin/ https://blog.jetbrains.com/kotlin/2011/08/why-jetbrains-need... Outside Android, I will care about Kotlin when KVM becomes an unavoidable reality, until then, it can party with Beanshell, jTCL, Jython, JRuby, Scala. Closjure, Groovy, Frege, and plenty of other ones, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JVM_languages https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JVM_languages