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Few, if any. They are a really good idea in so many ways, but Americans regard speed cameras of all sorts as unsporting and invasive. I used to feel the same

by ISL 5y ago

Few, if any. They are a really good idea in so many ways, but Americans regard speed cameras of all sorts as unsporting and invasive. I used to feel the same way, until some combination of experience with traffic cameras in other countries and maturity changed my mind. Traffic-stops are dangerous for all concerned, expensive, don't scale, and are rife with the opportunity for profiling/abuse. To the extent that we can agree on speed limits that delineate the difference between safe and unsafe behavior, average-speed cameras are a great way to ensure that those limits aren't radically exceeded. There are places, like Highway 20 in Washington State, where the privacy risk is limited. If you pass through Newhalem, you're either going to the mountains or you're going to Mazama, 60 miles away. On that stretch of road, if a car arrives >10% earlier than can possibly be safe, why can't we fine the car's owner?

causi 5y ago
Speed cameras would be fine if we fixed some major problems. For example, the revenue goes to the local government so they have a vested interest in using them to generate as much income as possible. For another, American speed limits are often nonsensical and having nothing to do with the actual road conditions. I've been on tiny twisting roads with a limit of 65mph and I've been on giant thoroughfares that were 45 and seemed designed to tempt drivers into getting tickets.
volkl48 5y ago
You'd probably just see a large uptick in people obfuscating their plates (which is much easier with US-style plates than European-style ones). That's what's happened in NYC. All the drivers who go out intending to blatantly violate the law just started making it so their plates can't be read (or are outright missing) and don't care about the cameras at all. As someone much further north, unless I just came out of the car wash, my plates are basically illegible 4-6 months a year because of the heavy level of salt/sand/crap on the road in winter. I don't think you're getting away from requiring a high level of traffic stops to influence driver behavior significantly.
- olyjohn 5y ago
  When have traffic stops ever influenced driving behavior? If that really worked, then there should be no more speeding. Millions upon millions of speeding tickets have been written, and people still speed. Cops can patrol an area, and as soon as they leave, people go back to speeding.
klyrs 5y ago
> why can't we fine the car's owner? That's the rub, in many places. You can't fine the owner unless you can prove that the owner was in control of the vehicle. I know some identical twins, one was driving a car and got caught by a red light camera with a clear picture of the driver. Both twins show up to court, claim that they share the car, and the photo can't distinguish between them. They got out of the ticket. Personally, I'd be in favor of turning speed camera pings into an "excessive use fee" on the car's registration (pay on renewal, or no renewal). Edit: the notion of moving speed infractions to an administrative fee does have some issues -- in cases of dangerously excessive speeding, it seems like a good idea for a cop to intervene. A sloppy implementation would result in double-jeopardy. If a car is stolen and used to commit a crime, but the thief isn't identified, that could result in significant legal difficulty for the owner.
kristjansson 5y ago
> To the extent that we can agree on speed limits that delineate the difference between safe and unsafe behavior That can’t be the case though? If the posted limit is the boundary between safe and unsafe, drivers will be close to the limit all the time, and really in danger should they exceed it. The limits have to be set well away from that boundary, and the boundary itself has to assume the lowest common denominator of driver and vehicle. I think that's why average speed cameras feel especially unsporting. A reasonable driver in a modern car could beat a posted limit by 10% while remaining so far inside their safety envelope they wouldn't even notice.
- ISL 5y ago
  There is a big difference between "the car can handle it" and unsafe. For an extreme example, see: School Zones.
olyjohn 5y ago
All the camera operators here in the US are totally corrupt. They have been caught all across the country lobbying and bribing politicians. They all take a large percentage of the ticketing revenue, and thus are incentivized to get as many tickets as possible. Camera operators have repeatedly been caught making roads less safe in order to maximize ticketing and revenue. https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/pr/former-redflex-ceo-liaison-and-chicago-official-indicted-alleged-corruption-city-s-red https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/pr/former-redflex-ceo-liai... https://ww2.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/ https://ww2.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-sho... I mean, I could literally find 100000 links to various stories. These were just the first two that came up with a quick search.

by ISL 5y ago

causi 5y ago

Speed cameras would be fine if we fixed some major problems. For example, the revenue goes to the local government so they have a vested interest in using them to generate as much income as possible. For another, American speed limits are often nonsensical and having nothing to do with the actual road conditions. I've been on tiny twisting roads with a limit of 65mph and I've been on giant thoroughfares that were 45 and seemed designed to tempt drivers into getting tickets.

volkl48 5y ago

You'd probably just see a large uptick in people obfuscating their plates (which is much easier with US-style plates than European-style ones). That's what's happened in NYC. All the drivers who go out intending to blatantly violate the law just started making it so their plates can't be read (or are outright missing) and don't care about the cameras at all. As someone much further north, unless I just came out of the car wash, my plates are basically illegible 4-6 months a year because of the heavy level of salt/sand/crap on the road in winter. I don't think you're getting away from requiring a high level of traffic stops to influence driver behavior significantly.

olyjohn 5y ago
When have traffic stops ever influenced driving behavior? If that really worked, then there should be no more speeding. Millions upon millions of speeding tickets have been written, and people still speed. Cops can patrol an area, and as soon as they leave, people go back to speeding.

klyrs 5y ago

> why can't we fine the car's owner? That's the rub, in many places. You can't fine the owner unless you can prove that the owner was in control of the vehicle. I know some identical twins, one was driving a car and got caught by a red light camera with a clear picture of the driver. Both twins show up to court, claim that they share the car, and the photo can't distinguish between them. They got out of the ticket. Personally, I'd be in favor of turning speed camera pings into an "excessive use fee" on the car's registration (pay on renewal, or no renewal). Edit: the notion of moving speed infractions to an administrative fee does have some issues -- in cases of dangerously excessive speeding, it seems like a good idea for a cop to intervene. A sloppy implementation would result in double-jeopardy. If a car is stolen and used to commit a crime, but the thief isn't identified, that could result in significant legal difficulty for the owner.

kristjansson 5y ago

> To the extent that we can agree on speed limits that delineate the difference between safe and unsafe behavior That can’t be the case though? If the posted limit is the boundary between safe and unsafe, drivers will be close to the limit all the time, and really in danger should they exceed it. The limits have to be set well away from that boundary, and the boundary itself has to assume the lowest common denominator of driver and vehicle. I think that's why average speed cameras feel especially unsporting. A reasonable driver in a modern car could beat a posted limit by 10% while remaining so far inside their safety envelope they wouldn't even notice.

ISL 5y ago
There is a big difference between "the car can handle it" and unsafe. For an extreme example, see: School Zones.

olyjohn 5y ago

All the camera operators here in the US are totally corrupt. They have been caught all across the country lobbying and bribing politicians. They all take a large percentage of the ticketing revenue, and thus are incentivized to get as many tickets as possible. Camera operators have repeatedly been caught making roads less safe in order to maximize ticketing and revenue. https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/pr/former-redflex-ceo-liaison-and-chicago-official-indicted-alleged-corruption-city-s-red https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/pr/former-redflex-ceo-liai... https://ww2.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/ https://ww2.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-sho... I mean, I could literally find 100000 links to various stories. These were just the first two that came up with a quick search.