4 ms·

But what happens in the EU is not really relevant at all in this conversation, no?

by elteto 5y ago

dncornholio 5y ago
It works as an example that you don't actually need them.
- elteto 5y ago
  It works as an example that _people in the EU_ don't seem to need them.
  - jlcoff 5y ago
    Only urbanites don't need them... until they do. Plenty of people in Europe need pickups.
    - Johnny555 5y ago
      I'm not an urbanite, but on the rare occasion I need a pickup truck, I rent one. I don't like owning things I only need occasionally, I use our communities tool lending library too when I need a tool for a project.
      - jlcoff 5y ago
        Just as if you could plan which tool you'd need for a job... You'd be surprised how quick you can go from using a ratchet, to an impact, to an air driven 3/4" impact, to requiring an oxy-acetylene torch for a given job... How about we agree that we just don't have the same lifestyle ?
        Johnny555 5y ago
        Oh, I agree we don't have the same lifestyle, but I don't agree that everyone that "might" need a pickup (or an oxyacetylene torch) should own one because they might have a use for it 6 months from now.
        jlcoff 5y ago
        Fortunately, we live in a free society where what you "agree" on is irrelevant to the discussion. Now, if you want to legislate my freedom away, now I do have a problem with that and we will not be friends.
        Johnny555 5y ago
        Don't worry, I don't have any desire to legislate your freedom away, I just want you to pay a fair price for it, including environmental costs.
        jlcoff 5y ago
        I'm glad you mastered "How-start-a-civil-war 101".
        Johnny555 5y ago
        I'm not sure I understand the problem -- you said you need a big truck to provide a service (haul your food, your mail, etc), which is totally fair, we all use things that were hauled around on trucks, you can't build a road by hauling in asphalt on a Prius. So if there's, say, a carbon tax on fuel, when fuel prices go up, everyone that uses fuel to provide service will see higher costs, so the providers will all increase their rates to make up for it. Many transportation providers already charge a fuel surcharge when oil prices go up. Why would you start a civil war over it? I'm sure that externalizing environmental costs is attractive, but that just ensures that no one is going to optimize for it.
        jlcoff 5y ago
        That's the problem, you just repeating the Gospel without understanding the externalities involved in the regulations you advocates for. Many times, you are not free to set the price of goods, especially in today socialist / regulated economy. Your costs go up, your margins profit go down. There is so much you can squeeze. Heck, DEF sounds nice to save the environment & all, but when your combine three a DEF code and pretty much blew your engine 400 miles from the nearest dealership right during harvest before a storm, goes into limp mode and prevent you from harvesting, you're literally fucked, your all farm might even go bankrupt. Don't even count on insurance to save your ass, because you already had to cut back to focus on other coverage to mitigate skyrocketing fertilizer costs, which doesn't matter anyway because the price you'll sell your production 6 month from now has been set a thousand mile away by a white collar asshole right after his daily jerk off and line of coke. But what a beer sipping urbanite would know of actual hard constraint while at the same time, accusing us of social grand standing. Just GFY. You pretend yourself smart, but you're not. You sound like Marie Antoinette "let them eat cake". Next thing you know, your head hang on a spike in front of an angry mob.
- jlcoff 5y ago
  Please do not imply were dumb. We're not spending 100,000$ just to show off. We do need them, because we need to haul 2000-4000lb at a time over hundreds of miles and tow 5,000lb to 30,000lb on a regular basis. My biggest haul personally was about 20,000lb (of actual payload) over 500mi, and I regularly max out my 2,500lb capacity dodge 2500. You ain't gonna move that shit with a Citroen C2. Also, it's not just a matter of payload. The bigger wheelbase and larger tires make them much more drive able in snow or mud or ice which is common weather around. Small cars are a safety issue on black ice. Btw, I'm a small player.
  - femiagbabiaka 5y ago
    I don't think anyone has a problem with professionals using tools fit to task. (I certainly don't.) I just personally don't want to have to walk or bike on streets where trucks are moving a combined weight of 5 or 6 tons at high speeds. I think this could be solved with smarter street/highway design, which would also help drivers get from A to B more efficiently. And FWIW, I grew up in rural Indiana (USA), soybean and corn country. It's definitely not just professionals driving these vehicles. Actually I'd say most trucks on the streets growing up were NOT used by professionals, the real farm trucks were often barely street legal and could never seem to get past 30-40 mph with a load (or without heh).
  - piva00 5y ago
    If you're using a truck to work and it fits the purpose then there is no need to feel it's been directed towards you.
- jlcoff 5y ago
  Only when you're living a EU urbanites lifestyle. And who the fuck are you to speak in term of "need" ? You don't need an iphone when a 10 that's old piece of crap hardware does the same job (albeit much less efficiently).

But what happens in the EU is not really relevant at all in this conversation, no?

by elteto 5y ago

But what happens in the EU is not really relevant at all in this conversation, no?

dncornholio 5y ago

It works as an example that you don't actually need them.

elteto 5y ago
It works as an example that _people in the EU_ don't seem to need them.
- jlcoff 5y ago
  Only urbanites don't need them... until they do. Plenty of people in Europe need pickups.
  - Johnny555 5y ago
    I'm not an urbanite, but on the rare occasion I need a pickup truck, I rent one. I don't like owning things I only need occasionally, I use our communities tool lending library too when I need a tool for a project.
    - jlcoff 5y ago
      Just as if you could plan which tool you'd need for a job... You'd be surprised how quick you can go from using a ratchet, to an impact, to an air driven 3/4" impact, to requiring an oxy-acetylene torch for a given job... How about we agree that we just don't have the same lifestyle ?
      - Johnny555 5y ago
        Oh, I agree we don't have the same lifestyle, but I don't agree that everyone that "might" need a pickup (or an oxyacetylene torch) should own one because they might have a use for it 6 months from now.
        jlcoff 5y ago
        Fortunately, we live in a free society where what you "agree" on is irrelevant to the discussion. Now, if you want to legislate my freedom away, now I do have a problem with that and we will not be friends.
        Johnny555 5y ago
        Don't worry, I don't have any desire to legislate your freedom away, I just want you to pay a fair price for it, including environmental costs.
        jlcoff 5y ago
        I'm glad you mastered "How-start-a-civil-war 101".
        Johnny555 5y ago
        I'm not sure I understand the problem -- you said you need a big truck to provide a service (haul your food, your mail, etc), which is totally fair, we all use things that were hauled around on trucks, you can't build a road by hauling in asphalt on a Prius. So if there's, say, a carbon tax on fuel, when fuel prices go up, everyone that uses fuel to provide service will see higher costs, so the providers will all increase their rates to make up for it. Many transportation providers already charge a fuel surcharge when oil prices go up. Why would you start a civil war over it? I'm sure that externalizing environmental costs is attractive, but that just ensures that no one is going to optimize for it.
        jlcoff 5y ago
        That's the problem, you just repeating the Gospel without understanding the externalities involved in the regulations you advocates for. Many times, you are not free to set the price of goods, especially in today socialist / regulated economy. Your costs go up, your margins profit go down. There is so much you can squeeze. Heck, DEF sounds nice to save the environment & all, but when your combine three a DEF code and pretty much blew your engine 400 miles from the nearest dealership right during harvest before a storm, goes into limp mode and prevent you from harvesting, you're literally fucked, your all farm might even go bankrupt. Don't even count on insurance to save your ass, because you already had to cut back to focus on other coverage to mitigate skyrocketing fertilizer costs, which doesn't matter anyway because the price you'll sell your production 6 month from now has been set a thousand mile away by a white collar asshole right after his daily jerk off and line of coke. But what a beer sipping urbanite would know of actual hard constraint while at the same time, accusing us of social grand standing. Just GFY. You pretend yourself smart, but you're not. You sound like Marie Antoinette "let them eat cake". Next thing you know, your head hang on a spike in front of an angry mob.
jlcoff 5y ago
Please do not imply were dumb. We're not spending 100,000$ just to show off. We do need them, because we need to haul 2000-4000lb at a time over hundreds of miles and tow 5,000lb to 30,000lb on a regular basis. My biggest haul personally was about 20,000lb (of actual payload) over 500mi, and I regularly max out my 2,500lb capacity dodge 2500. You ain't gonna move that shit with a Citroen C2. Also, it's not just a matter of payload. The bigger wheelbase and larger tires make them much more drive able in snow or mud or ice which is common weather around. Small cars are a safety issue on black ice. Btw, I'm a small player.
- femiagbabiaka 5y ago
  I don't think anyone has a problem with professionals using tools fit to task. (I certainly don't.) I just personally don't want to have to walk or bike on streets where trucks are moving a combined weight of 5 or 6 tons at high speeds. I think this could be solved with smarter street/highway design, which would also help drivers get from A to B more efficiently. And FWIW, I grew up in rural Indiana (USA), soybean and corn country. It's definitely not just professionals driving these vehicles. Actually I'd say most trucks on the streets growing up were NOT used by professionals, the real farm trucks were often barely street legal and could never seem to get past 30-40 mph with a load (or without heh).
- piva00 5y ago
  If you're using a truck to work and it fits the purpose then there is no need to feel it's been directed towards you.
jlcoff 5y ago
Only when you're living a EU urbanites lifestyle. And who the fuck are you to speak in term of "need" ? You don't need an iphone when a 10 that's old piece of crap hardware does the same job (albeit much less efficiently).