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It is really interesting to see how these are tangled together! One simple experiment you can do is, think of a cup then a image pops up. That image will likel

It is really interesting to see how these are tangled together! One simple experiment you can do is, think of a cup then a image pops up. That image will likely be the image of recently used cup or something you cherished deeply. Now after a while if you read "a cup" you see same associations! Of course I removed a lot of details, but it's really easy to verify the idea presented here. And something like CLIP[0] seems to be a good direction because it combines both visual and language aspect! [0]: https://openai.com/blog/clip/ https://openai.com/blog/clip/

dannyw 5y ago
I have aphantasia[0], when I think of a cup, no image pops up. I can think about the properties of a cup: it holds a drink, it's a physical object, and if I specifically think about what color or shape a cup is, I can describe it; but I never visualise it. I wonder how my brain works in this context. I also have wondered if this contributed to me being fairly good at programming and systems thinking; but dismal at art and anything creative. [0]: "https://psyche.co/ideas/i-have-no-minds-eye-let-me-try-to-describe-it-for-you https://psyche.co/ideas/i-have-no-minds-eye-let-me-try-to-de..."
- cosmojg 5y ago
  Can you feel the cup? Can you imagine holding it in your hands, caressing the rim, scooping the inside, and feeling the pressure on your hands? Can you imagine your hands getting wet or even the pain of a thousand shards of glass as the cup suddenly shatters? Does it make a sound? Can you smell the tea? Can you taste it?
  - lstamour 5y ago
    Not the same person, but have a similar condition, so I’ll take a go at it. Sample size of one here. > Can you feel the cup? No. There really isn’t a specific cup. > Can you imagine holding it in your hands, caressing the rim, scooping the inside, and feeling the pressure on your hands? Yes, I can imagine these actions, but it’s more about remembering what it might be like to feel that sensation again and is somewhat disconnected from the cup. I end up wanting to remember a different, real cup, when I might have done those actions. Like how I can remember when I last cut off circulation in my hands carrying a heavy plastic bag, say. I know how that feels, but it’s not something I’m particularly good at imagining visually - with a mental image. > Can you imagine your hands getting wet or even the pain of a thousand shards of glass as the cup suddenly shatters? Not quite, and no, I can’t really imagine the shattering. I mean, I can remember a time when a cup fell and shattered and sort of associate that, but just “visualizing” the pain or shattering seems impossible. I can play concept association and “imagine” the cup exploding outwards like a grenade, but it’s not visual or concrete, it’s more conceptual and I lose any connection to pain or feeling or hands and fingers. The more I try to make up without associating with a memory, the more abstract (verbal, less real) the “imagining” seems. > Does it make a sound? I can imagine sounds, and get songs stuck in my head, so I have some idea of how mental visualization should work for me, but it doesn’t visually work that way. It’s interesting that to me, just now, imagining the sound of a cup shattering produces an associated concept mentally than the reverse … I can’t easily go from a shattered or falling cup concept to the sound, but I can relatively easily do the reverse: I can go almost instantly from imagining the sound of a shattered cup to thinking of a shattered or falling cup and what that might look like or how the shards might feel. > Can you smell the tea? Again, thinking of smells first brings back sounds and memories more strongly than visuals would for me, and when I was trying to think of an image, it was abstract - there were no sounds or smells in particular and it wasn’t something I could interact with. More of a model of a cup. Even thinking of the interactions or how something would feel, I now realize, is thinking about feelings and memories of feelings - that visualizing my other senses such as touch, smell or hearing is much easier for me than to visualize based on appearances. > Can you taste it? Not from the mental imagining of the cup, no. If I remember the sounds of when I was at a tea house, or if I pull up a photo of a cup of tea on my phone, then I can imagine the taste. But it feels disconnected to try and purely jump from a “visual” cup to thinking, it tastes like tea. Thinking of how certain foods taste does bring up memories and can make my mouth water imagining or remembering how certain foods tasted, though. Thinking of a taste can bring back the smells, the feeling of heat rising off a dish or hot plate, the sounds of sizzling, and a memory of what it would look like. But there still isn’t really a “picture” and if I wasn’t looking at a photo on my phone, all I could tell you about my visual imaginings would be words or concepts. I can tell that something is missing in my imagining because of how different it is to go from non-visual senses to other non-visual senses. But visuals … don’t have the same mental impact unless I can see them in front of me, e.g. on a computer screen. For others, remembering a layout might trigger memories of details, for me it is the opposite - I remember the layout of a flowchart by remembering which details are connected and then from there I can describe the diagram’s layout in my head. But again, sample size of one here.
    - rednerrus 5y ago
      Do you struggle to remember song lyrics?
      - lstamour 5y ago
        It’s about the same as anyone else, I think, though I remember lyrics more strongly if I remember the concepts or melody or rhythm that I can associate with the lyrics. If I have a particularly strong feeling about a song or lyric or if I repeat it and sing along, I can easily remember it for some time after. It’s not like my memory works better or worse than others (as far as I know), it’s more like I can’t as easily store and recall a visual memory without converting it first to concepts or details and storing those instead. The idea that I can see someone’s face clear as day in my mind or see my life flash before my eyes seems incredibly foreign, almost like a superpower. The problem seems to be visual memory, not auditory or verbal. And it’s not that I can’t understand visual concepts better - e.g. a YouTube video or diagram can have a greater impact on my understanding than a verbal speech or audiobook. But it’s about remembering concepts and details - there’s no “fuzzy visual” for me to latch on to. Either I remember a detail or concept clear enough, almost as if it were described in words, or I don’t. If anything, I find it weird that I can easily recognize visuals or logos that are similar to what I’ve seen before. E.g. to say “that looks like the Spotify logo,” while needing to actually look up the Spotify logo to “see it”. I suspect I end up “pattern matching” the concepts and details I’ve seen visually - e.g. round, green and black, sans-serif semibold type, rectangular, relative thickness/margins, and so on… and match on that. Like anyone, my memory can be faulty or incomplete - I’ve less reason to remember something I haven’t seen or experienced as often. I do wonder what a scientific study might uncover or have uncovered about this condition. All I can say is of anyone else I know who might have it, most don’t think about it as much as I have. It’s uncomfortable to think that you’re deficient in some way for being unable to do what “everyone else” can do, especially when it doesn’t seem to affect your day-to-day life in a particularly visible way. I suspect it is why I liked computer software so much, though. I could move and manipulate visual things so easily that otherwise seemed impossible. I could imagine that just like glasses help correct vision deficiencies, a future AR headset could easily help correct a lack of visual memories through automated capture and some form of recall querying. Visual mental manipulation would probably be harder to mimic though, and more like today’s software, I imagine, in which you have to “issue instructions” a bit more. If I had to say an obvious advantage to this condition, it’s that any visual brainstorming I do can be easily shared as I do it, since I’d be using paper or digital means anyway. By comparison, if I have a song idea, it’s nearly impossible to reproduce it exactly. I’ve never had that issue visually - either the visual in front of me matches the idea I had or it doesn’t, there’s no perfect visual idea in my head to try and match up to or fall short from. In that way, it is perhaps a bit easier for me to “live in the moment,” and to share ideas I have in a visual format, not that I’ve given it much thought before. I think it leads me to have less creative visuals though, as their basis is almost always a concept of some kind, or merging of concepts.
- tasty_freeze 5y ago
  I've read a number of times about aphantasia, but I'm still unsure about things. For instance, if I'm asked to think of a cup in my minds eye, I would say yes, I can. Therefore I don't have aphantasia. But it is not at all like looking at a real cup or a picture of a cup. It is far more liminal and fleeting. One bit of evidence of this is when I tried LSD a few times in the past, I don't get CEV (closed eye visuals), while some people report rich, colorful scenery. All the same, I do get visual impressions without actually seeing anything. For instance, while listening to a particular song it generated nothing but blackness in my minds eye, yet all the same I had the impression of looking at glossy flower made of hard glass. I was getting the interpretive conclusion of vision without any of the other information flow that comes along with actually seeing the object. When I visualize things in my mind, it is kind of like that too -- I can describe what I'm seeing but I don't really see it.
  - captaincaveman 5y ago
    Maybe because its a class of things, you can't visualise 'furniture', but you can visualise instance such as an office chair, or dinning table. My description is poor, office chair is also a class, but it not the top class ... I dunno read about this once anyway, didn't make it up, honest!
  - ummwhat 5y ago
    I don't know how much LSD you did or what your body weight was or anything else that might be chemically relevant. But I would be deeply surprised by an individual being immune to the closed eye hallucinations. When you look at a lightbulb for a moment and then close your eyes, do you get the after image? The "closed eye hallucinations" are just that normal after image chopped up in frequency space. LSD exposes the fact that a lot of what the brain does can be understood in terms of analog signal processing. The most reliable way to get a high quality viewing of the crystal patterns is with TV static. Baring that, any randomized constant texture such as a carpet will suffice. The reason is because random noise evenly fills up the entire spectrum in frequency space, so whatever frequencies are cut, de-phased, or otherwise affectef are guaranteed to be present in an image of pure noise. Another reliable glitch is that all lines below a certain thickness will tend to wobble or drift in and out of visibility. Again, construct a line as a really thin gaussian wave packet and see what happens when the high frequency terms pick up phase drift. LSD hallucinations have nothing to do with aphantasia.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
cosmojg 5y ago
> That image will likely be the image of recently used cup or something you cherished deeply. I ended up imagining a comically ornate, little, blue, fine-china teacup. It's not one I've used recently. In fact, I can't remember ever using such a thing! But the image arose effortlessly so I must have seen it at some point, no? Maybe in a videogame or at a friend's house? I don't know; the same thing happens when I attempt this exercise with the words "tree" or "car" or "pencil". It's almost like I'm imagining my own, personal platonic ideals. On the other hand, when I think of a duck, it's a mallard rather than a call duck, and I definitely see more mallard than call ducks in my day-to-day life.
dEnigma 5y ago
I've just imagined the most bland white cup, almost like the platonic ideal of a cup. None of my cups, or the cups at work, look like that.
emsy 5y ago
I have aphantasia and I think of a very generic cup, akin to a stock image. It’s only a faint image, what’s more prominent is the concept of a cup.
- lstamour 5y ago
  Likewise. I think, “can hold liquids, handheld, might be hot or cold,” probably a white ceramic comes to mind, maybe something I might have seen at IKEA. No handle, no decorations, a cup isn’t defined by those and they don’t show up in my imagining of one. Smaller in diameter yet about as high or maybe a bit taller than a bowl. Bigger than a thimble, roughly the size of my hand, or easy to palm. Probably in a kitchen or on a dining table. It’s all rather conceptual for me. What’s weird for me is if I do the reverse, and instead of trying to jump from visually imagining a cup to associate other senses, if I instead think of the feeling of a warm cup in my hands, I can more easily imagine what it smelled and tasted like, and even a particular memory comes to mind too. But if I try to do the reverse, such as visualizing that same memory as a picture in my head, I can’t recall the heat or other details, I end up thinking of either concepts (words) or it’s like a photograph and flat, not real life. For me, associations from “imagery” are harder than other kinds of associations and don’t have much impact at all. Strangely, I can associate positionally, though. E.g. that something is on a third shelf or inside a closet, and have that trigger memories. But I can’t do so by remembering what the shelf or closet looked like.
pessimizer 5y ago
It makes sense. If I'm asked to visualize a cup, I probably first think of an emptiness that can be filled, then I enclose that, while I'm enclosing it I remember that it needs a hole to be filled or drunk from, and an orientation so I can put that hole on the top and its opposite on the bottom so I can sit it on a table - it has become a cylinder, now I remember a particular, very cylindrical glass that I own that has a Norman Rockwell painting screened onto it, then I realize that I've thought the word "glass," so I get rid of the painting and make it plastic. Then I make it blue, probably because that's the first color I go to when somebody asks me to name a color. If I come across the word "cup" for a little while, I'll just remember that time when I tried to visualize a cup, and think of a blue cylindrical cup.

dannyw 5y ago

I have aphantasia[0], when I think of a cup, no image pops up. I can think about the properties of a cup: it holds a drink, it's a physical object, and if I specifically think about what color or shape a cup is, I can describe it; but I never visualise it. I wonder how my brain works in this context. I also have wondered if this contributed to me being fairly good at programming and systems thinking; but dismal at art and anything creative. [0]: "https://psyche.co/ideas/i-have-no-minds-eye-let-me-try-to-describe-it-for-you https://psyche.co/ideas/i-have-no-minds-eye-let-me-try-to-de..."

cosmojg 5y ago
Can you feel the cup? Can you imagine holding it in your hands, caressing the rim, scooping the inside, and feeling the pressure on your hands? Can you imagine your hands getting wet or even the pain of a thousand shards of glass as the cup suddenly shatters? Does it make a sound? Can you smell the tea? Can you taste it?
- lstamour 5y ago
  Not the same person, but have a similar condition, so I’ll take a go at it. Sample size of one here. > Can you feel the cup? No. There really isn’t a specific cup. > Can you imagine holding it in your hands, caressing the rim, scooping the inside, and feeling the pressure on your hands? Yes, I can imagine these actions, but it’s more about remembering what it might be like to feel that sensation again and is somewhat disconnected from the cup. I end up wanting to remember a different, real cup, when I might have done those actions. Like how I can remember when I last cut off circulation in my hands carrying a heavy plastic bag, say. I know how that feels, but it’s not something I’m particularly good at imagining visually - with a mental image. > Can you imagine your hands getting wet or even the pain of a thousand shards of glass as the cup suddenly shatters? Not quite, and no, I can’t really imagine the shattering. I mean, I can remember a time when a cup fell and shattered and sort of associate that, but just “visualizing” the pain or shattering seems impossible. I can play concept association and “imagine” the cup exploding outwards like a grenade, but it’s not visual or concrete, it’s more conceptual and I lose any connection to pain or feeling or hands and fingers. The more I try to make up without associating with a memory, the more abstract (verbal, less real) the “imagining” seems. > Does it make a sound? I can imagine sounds, and get songs stuck in my head, so I have some idea of how mental visualization should work for me, but it doesn’t visually work that way. It’s interesting that to me, just now, imagining the sound of a cup shattering produces an associated concept mentally than the reverse … I can’t easily go from a shattered or falling cup concept to the sound, but I can relatively easily do the reverse: I can go almost instantly from imagining the sound of a shattered cup to thinking of a shattered or falling cup and what that might look like or how the shards might feel. > Can you smell the tea? Again, thinking of smells first brings back sounds and memories more strongly than visuals would for me, and when I was trying to think of an image, it was abstract - there were no sounds or smells in particular and it wasn’t something I could interact with. More of a model of a cup. Even thinking of the interactions or how something would feel, I now realize, is thinking about feelings and memories of feelings - that visualizing my other senses such as touch, smell or hearing is much easier for me than to visualize based on appearances. > Can you taste it? Not from the mental imagining of the cup, no. If I remember the sounds of when I was at a tea house, or if I pull up a photo of a cup of tea on my phone, then I can imagine the taste. But it feels disconnected to try and purely jump from a “visual” cup to thinking, it tastes like tea. Thinking of how certain foods taste does bring up memories and can make my mouth water imagining or remembering how certain foods tasted, though. Thinking of a taste can bring back the smells, the feeling of heat rising off a dish or hot plate, the sounds of sizzling, and a memory of what it would look like. But there still isn’t really a “picture” and if I wasn’t looking at a photo on my phone, all I could tell you about my visual imaginings would be words or concepts. I can tell that something is missing in my imagining because of how different it is to go from non-visual senses to other non-visual senses. But visuals … don’t have the same mental impact unless I can see them in front of me, e.g. on a computer screen. For others, remembering a layout might trigger memories of details, for me it is the opposite - I remember the layout of a flowchart by remembering which details are connected and then from there I can describe the diagram’s layout in my head. But again, sample size of one here.
  - rednerrus 5y ago
    Do you struggle to remember song lyrics?
    - lstamour 5y ago
      It’s about the same as anyone else, I think, though I remember lyrics more strongly if I remember the concepts or melody or rhythm that I can associate with the lyrics. If I have a particularly strong feeling about a song or lyric or if I repeat it and sing along, I can easily remember it for some time after. It’s not like my memory works better or worse than others (as far as I know), it’s more like I can’t as easily store and recall a visual memory without converting it first to concepts or details and storing those instead. The idea that I can see someone’s face clear as day in my mind or see my life flash before my eyes seems incredibly foreign, almost like a superpower. The problem seems to be visual memory, not auditory or verbal. And it’s not that I can’t understand visual concepts better - e.g. a YouTube video or diagram can have a greater impact on my understanding than a verbal speech or audiobook. But it’s about remembering concepts and details - there’s no “fuzzy visual” for me to latch on to. Either I remember a detail or concept clear enough, almost as if it were described in words, or I don’t. If anything, I find it weird that I can easily recognize visuals or logos that are similar to what I’ve seen before. E.g. to say “that looks like the Spotify logo,” while needing to actually look up the Spotify logo to “see it”. I suspect I end up “pattern matching” the concepts and details I’ve seen visually - e.g. round, green and black, sans-serif semibold type, rectangular, relative thickness/margins, and so on… and match on that. Like anyone, my memory can be faulty or incomplete - I’ve less reason to remember something I haven’t seen or experienced as often. I do wonder what a scientific study might uncover or have uncovered about this condition. All I can say is of anyone else I know who might have it, most don’t think about it as much as I have. It’s uncomfortable to think that you’re deficient in some way for being unable to do what “everyone else” can do, especially when it doesn’t seem to affect your day-to-day life in a particularly visible way. I suspect it is why I liked computer software so much, though. I could move and manipulate visual things so easily that otherwise seemed impossible. I could imagine that just like glasses help correct vision deficiencies, a future AR headset could easily help correct a lack of visual memories through automated capture and some form of recall querying. Visual mental manipulation would probably be harder to mimic though, and more like today’s software, I imagine, in which you have to “issue instructions” a bit more. If I had to say an obvious advantage to this condition, it’s that any visual brainstorming I do can be easily shared as I do it, since I’d be using paper or digital means anyway. By comparison, if I have a song idea, it’s nearly impossible to reproduce it exactly. I’ve never had that issue visually - either the visual in front of me matches the idea I had or it doesn’t, there’s no perfect visual idea in my head to try and match up to or fall short from. In that way, it is perhaps a bit easier for me to “live in the moment,” and to share ideas I have in a visual format, not that I’ve given it much thought before. I think it leads me to have less creative visuals though, as their basis is almost always a concept of some kind, or merging of concepts.
tasty_freeze 5y ago
I've read a number of times about aphantasia, but I'm still unsure about things. For instance, if I'm asked to think of a cup in my minds eye, I would say yes, I can. Therefore I don't have aphantasia. But it is not at all like looking at a real cup or a picture of a cup. It is far more liminal and fleeting. One bit of evidence of this is when I tried LSD a few times in the past, I don't get CEV (closed eye visuals), while some people report rich, colorful scenery. All the same, I do get visual impressions without actually seeing anything. For instance, while listening to a particular song it generated nothing but blackness in my minds eye, yet all the same I had the impression of looking at glossy flower made of hard glass. I was getting the interpretive conclusion of vision without any of the other information flow that comes along with actually seeing the object. When I visualize things in my mind, it is kind of like that too -- I can describe what I'm seeing but I don't really see it.
- captaincaveman 5y ago
  Maybe because its a class of things, you can't visualise 'furniture', but you can visualise instance such as an office chair, or dinning table. My description is poor, office chair is also a class, but it not the top class ... I dunno read about this once anyway, didn't make it up, honest!
- ummwhat 5y ago
  I don't know how much LSD you did or what your body weight was or anything else that might be chemically relevant. But I would be deeply surprised by an individual being immune to the closed eye hallucinations. When you look at a lightbulb for a moment and then close your eyes, do you get the after image? The "closed eye hallucinations" are just that normal after image chopped up in frequency space. LSD exposes the fact that a lot of what the brain does can be understood in terms of analog signal processing. The most reliable way to get a high quality viewing of the crystal patterns is with TV static. Baring that, any randomized constant texture such as a carpet will suffice. The reason is because random noise evenly fills up the entire spectrum in frequency space, so whatever frequencies are cut, de-phased, or otherwise affectef are guaranteed to be present in an image of pure noise. Another reliable glitch is that all lines below a certain thickness will tend to wobble or drift in and out of visibility. Again, construct a line as a really thin gaussian wave packet and see what happens when the high frequency terms pick up phase drift. LSD hallucinations have nothing to do with aphantasia.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

cosmojg 5y ago

> That image will likely be the image of recently used cup or something you cherished deeply. I ended up imagining a comically ornate, little, blue, fine-china teacup. It's not one I've used recently. In fact, I can't remember ever using such a thing! But the image arose effortlessly so I must have seen it at some point, no? Maybe in a videogame or at a friend's house? I don't know; the same thing happens when I attempt this exercise with the words "tree" or "car" or "pencil". It's almost like I'm imagining my own, personal platonic ideals. On the other hand, when I think of a duck, it's a mallard rather than a call duck, and I definitely see more mallard than call ducks in my day-to-day life.

dEnigma 5y ago

I've just imagined the most bland white cup, almost like the platonic ideal of a cup. None of my cups, or the cups at work, look like that.

emsy 5y ago

I have aphantasia and I think of a very generic cup, akin to a stock image. It’s only a faint image, what’s more prominent is the concept of a cup.

lstamour 5y ago
Likewise. I think, “can hold liquids, handheld, might be hot or cold,” probably a white ceramic comes to mind, maybe something I might have seen at IKEA. No handle, no decorations, a cup isn’t defined by those and they don’t show up in my imagining of one. Smaller in diameter yet about as high or maybe a bit taller than a bowl. Bigger than a thimble, roughly the size of my hand, or easy to palm. Probably in a kitchen or on a dining table. It’s all rather conceptual for me. What’s weird for me is if I do the reverse, and instead of trying to jump from visually imagining a cup to associate other senses, if I instead think of the feeling of a warm cup in my hands, I can more easily imagine what it smelled and tasted like, and even a particular memory comes to mind too. But if I try to do the reverse, such as visualizing that same memory as a picture in my head, I can’t recall the heat or other details, I end up thinking of either concepts (words) or it’s like a photograph and flat, not real life. For me, associations from “imagery” are harder than other kinds of associations and don’t have much impact at all. Strangely, I can associate positionally, though. E.g. that something is on a third shelf or inside a closet, and have that trigger memories. But I can’t do so by remembering what the shelf or closet looked like.

pessimizer 5y ago

It makes sense. If I'm asked to visualize a cup, I probably first think of an emptiness that can be filled, then I enclose that, while I'm enclosing it I remember that it needs a hole to be filled or drunk from, and an orientation so I can put that hole on the top and its opposite on the bottom so I can sit it on a table - it has become a cylinder, now I remember a particular, very cylindrical glass that I own that has a Norman Rockwell painting screened onto it, then I realize that I've thought the word "glass," so I get rid of the painting and make it plastic. Then I make it blue, probably because that's the first color I go to when somebody asks me to name a color. If I come across the word "cup" for a little while, I'll just remember that time when I tried to visualize a cup, and think of a blue cylindrical cup.