4 ms·

Sorry to get political but... Democracy has been a disaster for my country (the UK) for the last 30 years. It's given us endless bad policy. It's wrecking ev

Sorry to get political but... Democracy has been a disaster for my country (the UK) for the last 30 years. It's given us endless bad policy. It's wrecking every institution that made the UK livable. It's increased taxes and cut spending on anything not for small select groups. We're going backwards socially. I don't think ye-olde, people voting by fptp for someone to represent them on a party basis, for years when they can't actually tell you policies or names of those representatives democracy works anymore. Maybe social media or just media in general has broken it. Maybe people have just gotten really shitty. But it's not working...

echevil 5y ago
Democracy is overrated, period
- rjtavares 5y ago
  In the sense that some people treat it as perfect, yes. But, as they say, it's the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried.
  - echevil 5y ago
    Nah, that is also bogus claim shifting people's attention away from what really matters. A government ultimately needs to deliver policies benefitial for the country and its people. It is a failure if it cannot do that, not matter how "democratic" it is, like UK or current US. Being more "democratic" won't change anything
sam_lowry_ 5y ago
I understand your frustraction with British democratic processes, but you should probably travel to North Korea or Belarus once to see how UK fares on the world scale. Perspective matters.
- colordrops 5y ago
  I've been to NK, and it's as bad as they say. I still think US democracy is abhorrent. It's not a perspective or relativistic thing. Democracy is not a competition.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  It's not a dichotomy, and just because someone else has it worse doesn't mean one shouldn't strive for better.
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  I don't think it's as simple as either/or. I think we're headed towards Belarus exactly because our current system is performing so so poorly. I'm 37, I've never missed a vote except for 1 for London Mayor. I almost didn't bother last time. I'm just done with the whole system. Theres never been an election where the new government actually did anything for people like me (and I am very average). My vote has never counted (I've lived in three different safe seats). And I think our government is so poorly run, that frankly, a randomly selected general who happened to seize power could do no worse. That's how you end up with Belarus: Run democracy so badly, so undemocratically and produce such poor governments that people just stop believing. That's my complaint here: it's not that I think we're too democratic, it's that we're neither democratic nor effective but because we occasionally hold "elections" people just blindly accept the undemocratic shitshow.
  - sam_lowry_ 5y ago
    >That's how you end up with Belarus: >Run democracy so badly, so undemocratically >and produce such poor governments that >people just stop believing. There were no democratic elections in Belarus since 1994. And people did not stop believing. To the contrary, the population backed the opposition candiate in 2020 much more than it did in 2010. I am afraid that you do not realise how differnt life in Belarus is. As an example, people are routinely jailed for being independent observers at the last presidential elections. Or for the posession of the opposition flag. Or for reading "forbidden" Telegram channels. Before they are jailed, they are beaten up and are forced to present public excuses on camera. These public excuses are then aired on state TV, Telegram channels and published on Youtube as advertising [1]. [1] https://euvsdisinfo.eu/the-dirty-side-of-advertising-forced-confessions-from-belarus-on-youtube/ https://euvsdisinfo.eu/the-dirty-side-of-advertising-forced-...
darebak 5y ago
Yes, democracy is cumbersome but I don't see any better alternatives. You could argue that Singapore is doing great without them being a democracy but it has it's fair share of problems and it's not for everybody. Do you have any alternatives in mind?
- n4r9 5y ago
  They gave a couple of ideas: breaking up the media and increasing the number of viable political parties. Reforming the voting system would greatly aid the latter
  - darebak 5y ago
    Sure, but that's still democracy.
    - n4r9 5y ago
      Oh, perhaps we read the OP differently. I interpreted it as saying "democracy is implemented badly in the UK" not "democracy is inherently bad".
- marcyb5st 5y ago
  I am looking forward for a day where policy making is aided by AI or some advanced modeling that estimates impact over long time spans. The reality is that a lot of terrible policies have been applied over the years due to short term gains (e.g. being re-elected) and no one thought 20+ years down the line. For example, the Italian phenomenon of the so-called baby-pensioni (people that retired when less than 50y and some even 40). At the time it was great, unemployment drop to ~0% overnight and everybody was happy. 40ish years down the line Italy has a crippling debt also because we are still maintaining millions that have been unproductive for almost 40 years now. Someone or something looking at long term repercussions could have avoided this altogether. The same can be said for subsidising travel industry, ... . True, not applying these policies will slow down economic growth in the short term, but if they create such an outcome they probably were never sustainable to begin with. And it's better to have 40years at 2% growth than 15 years at 5% and then 0 for 25.
mutatio 5y ago
Personally, I think it's merely increased individualism, exasperated by globalism. You can still exercise your democratic right in the UK, Brexit being a good example, which was both unsupported by any meanstream party and a totally unexpected outcome. The Tories are in power because the previous iteration of the Labour party was simply a joke. If you mean to say we're going backwards because you don't like such events, then personally I think that's something else.
- n4r9 5y ago
  Brexit is a good example of how democratic processes need improvement. Regardless of the outcome it's embarrassing that such a poorly regulated process with ill-defined outcomes, misinformation, and fraud, has led to a dramatic change in direction. Also worth noting that the mainstream parties having a position does not somehow make it more democratic. Cameron's government was facing a lot of criticism at the time and there's a strong argument that some of the pro-Brexit votes were in protest against the government.
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  I think Brexit is a perfect example of what I am talking about. People think Brexit was democratic because there was a vote. But only something like 37% of eligible people voted for it. over a third didn't turn out (in part because no one expected it to pass?). And the vote was very regional: Scotland and London wanted to stay. But we're getting dragged out. And the people who voted for brexit didn't vote for brexit, they collectively voted for one of at least 3 different, mutually exclusive things all called brexit, so they are mostly disappointed. So you have less than 10 percent of voters getting what they actually voted "for". And that's for a permanent change, not a government who's policies can be reversed next election. And that's without getting into the fake news, lies, impossible promises, broken promises, etc. You may be a brexiteer, or a remainer like me. But we should all agree, the only thing democratic about brexit was that there was technically a vote. Which is about the same as North Korea or China manages...
earthbee 5y ago
Democracy doesn't work well when you're realistically only given only two options to vote for (or two and a half in the UK), and the bulk of the media is owned by a small group of extremely rich people who use their media empire to push their world view. For a better functioning democracy we'd need to break up media monopolies to help democracy thrive on a variety of viewpoints instead of just two, and we'd need more options of people or parties to vote for. But even still, do you think the UK would be functioning better if it was a straight up dictatorship? Looking at dictatorships around the world, it seems unlikely. Even a very broken cruddy democracy is better than the alternative.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  I want to believe a dictatorship by a good guy could work, but that's probably not realistic. I mean what even is a good guy? It's a philosophical question, I'm not very good / learned in that.
  - andi999 5y ago
    Powerful good guy can work (see e.g. Singapore); usually the problem is when the powerful good guy retires another powerful guy is the successor, but you dont have any checks and balances to make sure if they are good or not. So after a few transitions you might end up with a powerful bad guy.
  - soco 5y ago
    Also a democracy with smart voters could work. Why, you're the one who started with fantasy examples :)

echevil 5y ago

Democracy is overrated, period

rjtavares 5y ago
In the sense that some people treat it as perfect, yes. But, as they say, it's the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried.
- echevil 5y ago
  Nah, that is also bogus claim shifting people's attention away from what really matters. A government ultimately needs to deliver policies benefitial for the country and its people. It is a failure if it cannot do that, not matter how "democratic" it is, like UK or current US. Being more "democratic" won't change anything

sam_lowry_ 5y ago

I understand your frustraction with British democratic processes, but you should probably travel to North Korea or Belarus once to see how UK fares on the world scale. Perspective matters.

colordrops 5y ago
I've been to NK, and it's as bad as they say. I still think US democracy is abhorrent. It's not a perspective or relativistic thing. Democracy is not a competition.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
It's not a dichotomy, and just because someone else has it worse doesn't mean one shouldn't strive for better.
LatteLazy 5y ago
I don't think it's as simple as either/or. I think we're headed towards Belarus exactly because our current system is performing so so poorly. I'm 37, I've never missed a vote except for 1 for London Mayor. I almost didn't bother last time. I'm just done with the whole system. Theres never been an election where the new government actually did anything for people like me (and I am very average). My vote has never counted (I've lived in three different safe seats). And I think our government is so poorly run, that frankly, a randomly selected general who happened to seize power could do no worse. That's how you end up with Belarus: Run democracy so badly, so undemocratically and produce such poor governments that people just stop believing. That's my complaint here: it's not that I think we're too democratic, it's that we're neither democratic nor effective but because we occasionally hold "elections" people just blindly accept the undemocratic shitshow.
- sam_lowry_ 5y ago
  >That's how you end up with Belarus: >Run democracy so badly, so undemocratically >and produce such poor governments that >people just stop believing. There were no democratic elections in Belarus since 1994. And people did not stop believing. To the contrary, the population backed the opposition candiate in 2020 much more than it did in 2010. I am afraid that you do not realise how differnt life in Belarus is. As an example, people are routinely jailed for being independent observers at the last presidential elections. Or for the posession of the opposition flag. Or for reading "forbidden" Telegram channels. Before they are jailed, they are beaten up and are forced to present public excuses on camera. These public excuses are then aired on state TV, Telegram channels and published on Youtube as advertising [1]. [1] https://euvsdisinfo.eu/the-dirty-side-of-advertising-forced-confessions-from-belarus-on-youtube/ https://euvsdisinfo.eu/the-dirty-side-of-advertising-forced-...

darebak 5y ago

Yes, democracy is cumbersome but I don't see any better alternatives. You could argue that Singapore is doing great without them being a democracy but it has it's fair share of problems and it's not for everybody. Do you have any alternatives in mind?

n4r9 5y ago
They gave a couple of ideas: breaking up the media and increasing the number of viable political parties. Reforming the voting system would greatly aid the latter
- darebak 5y ago
  Sure, but that's still democracy.
  - n4r9 5y ago
    Oh, perhaps we read the OP differently. I interpreted it as saying "democracy is implemented badly in the UK" not "democracy is inherently bad".
marcyb5st 5y ago
I am looking forward for a day where policy making is aided by AI or some advanced modeling that estimates impact over long time spans. The reality is that a lot of terrible policies have been applied over the years due to short term gains (e.g. being re-elected) and no one thought 20+ years down the line. For example, the Italian phenomenon of the so-called baby-pensioni (people that retired when less than 50y and some even 40). At the time it was great, unemployment drop to ~0% overnight and everybody was happy. 40ish years down the line Italy has a crippling debt also because we are still maintaining millions that have been unproductive for almost 40 years now. Someone or something looking at long term repercussions could have avoided this altogether. The same can be said for subsidising travel industry, ... . True, not applying these policies will slow down economic growth in the short term, but if they create such an outcome they probably were never sustainable to begin with. And it's better to have 40years at 2% growth than 15 years at 5% and then 0 for 25.

mutatio 5y ago

Personally, I think it's merely increased individualism, exasperated by globalism. You can still exercise your democratic right in the UK, Brexit being a good example, which was both unsupported by any meanstream party and a totally unexpected outcome. The Tories are in power because the previous iteration of the Labour party was simply a joke. If you mean to say we're going backwards because you don't like such events, then personally I think that's something else.

n4r9 5y ago
Brexit is a good example of how democratic processes need improvement. Regardless of the outcome it's embarrassing that such a poorly regulated process with ill-defined outcomes, misinformation, and fraud, has led to a dramatic change in direction. Also worth noting that the mainstream parties having a position does not somehow make it more democratic. Cameron's government was facing a lot of criticism at the time and there's a strong argument that some of the pro-Brexit votes were in protest against the government.
LatteLazy 5y ago
I think Brexit is a perfect example of what I am talking about. People think Brexit was democratic because there was a vote. But only something like 37% of eligible people voted for it. over a third didn't turn out (in part because no one expected it to pass?). And the vote was very regional: Scotland and London wanted to stay. But we're getting dragged out. And the people who voted for brexit didn't vote for brexit, they collectively voted for one of at least 3 different, mutually exclusive things all called brexit, so they are mostly disappointed. So you have less than 10 percent of voters getting what they actually voted "for". And that's for a permanent change, not a government who's policies can be reversed next election. And that's without getting into the fake news, lies, impossible promises, broken promises, etc. You may be a brexiteer, or a remainer like me. But we should all agree, the only thing democratic about brexit was that there was technically a vote. Which is about the same as North Korea or China manages...

earthbee 5y ago

Democracy doesn't work well when you're realistically only given only two options to vote for (or two and a half in the UK), and the bulk of the media is owned by a small group of extremely rich people who use their media empire to push their world view. For a better functioning democracy we'd need to break up media monopolies to help democracy thrive on a variety of viewpoints instead of just two, and we'd need more options of people or parties to vote for. But even still, do you think the UK would be functioning better if it was a straight up dictatorship? Looking at dictatorships around the world, it seems unlikely. Even a very broken cruddy democracy is better than the alternative.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
I want to believe a dictatorship by a good guy could work, but that's probably not realistic. I mean what even is a good guy? It's a philosophical question, I'm not very good / learned in that.
- andi999 5y ago
  Powerful good guy can work (see e.g. Singapore); usually the problem is when the powerful good guy retires another powerful guy is the successor, but you dont have any checks and balances to make sure if they are good or not. So after a few transitions you might end up with a powerful bad guy.
- soco 5y ago
  Also a democracy with smart voters could work. Why, you're the one who started with fantasy examples :)