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> Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen I don't think you need these

> Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen I don't think you need these things to find a partner and have children. Just go to a maternity ward. It sounds like you think everyone there is highly motivated, physically fit, and dedicated to working on relationships. They aren't. They're just normal people with a range of human flaws and a regular cross-section of society. Fat, thin, lazy, hard-working, professional, unemployed, etc. Having kids isn't as hard as you make it sound!

paulryanrogers 5y ago
IDK starting the baby making process isn't terribly difficult once one has a partner. It's the carrying to term and everything after that is a lot of time, money, and energy. Some folks will struggle more with the partnering aspect than others. Or mustering the will and resources to begin parenting.
- grvdrm 5y ago
  Spend some time reading about infertility at the start of the baby making process and I think you’ll find that it can terribly difficult. Especially as you progress into your mid/late 30s (women). And it is that starting process that can also cost lots of money, time, and energy.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    Great call out. I forgot about some struggles in this regard myself, though IME dwarfed by the aftermath.
    - grvdrm 5y ago
      As two-kid dad, I definitely agree that the time, energy, and cost of delivering and raising kids is HUGE. It's not something that you should undervalue at all. But I think we have this unfortunate habit of severely underweighting the start process and things that aren't obvious. You probably experience lots of stress over the span of raising a kid (or more). Other people see that in the classic screaming-kid seemingly-helpless-parent visual. You may also experience that same stress, perhaps cumulatively more, just from the start because it's (1) VERY stressful when it doesn't work, and (2) a situation that can drag on for what feels like forever. So, everyone commiserates over work it is to raise a kid but few people talk openly or at all about how hard it is to start the process of having a kid.
      - rdtwo 5y ago
        The toolbox for doing it sucks too. The public school and childcare infrastructure is absolute shit and private is an expensive crapshoot
        grvdrm 5y ago
        That sounds like the toolbox when your kid is born. You are probably right as it pertains to the US. I’m talking about pre-birth part.
        fouc 5y ago
        That really depends on the country, the smart move may require relocating to raise kids elsewhere.
        rdtwo 5y ago
        Some jobs are unfortunately linked to areas where it’s really expensive to raise kids.
        jack_pp 5y ago
        I've just looked at this recently, boarding school in Spain is around 12k per year
        rdtwo 5y ago
        In the USA 12k buys you a half day of care or possibly a religious school if you are already a member
        jack_pp 5y ago
        That's why I mentioned boarding schools, you don't have to live there to send your kids to it and also it might be good for them, nurture independence and a lot of experience with a foreign culture while also giving you flexibility and easing the burden of child raising.
  - KennyBlanken 5y ago
    Spend some time reading about infertility and you'll find that the number one cause for both men and women is obesity. Every single one of my friends or acquaintances who is obese has had trouble conceiving. Every. Single. One.
    - grvdrm 5y ago
      Sure, I didn’t have that in mind but I would say it augments my point rather than refutes it.
urthor 5y ago
Throwaway's point about how the system is extremely self-selecting is still a very good one though.
fusionbro 5y ago
symlinkk 5y ago
The selection process is on Tinder, not the maternity ward, and the bar is brutally high there for men.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > the bar is brutally high The men I've seen in maternity wards are just totally normal men.
- eropple 5y ago
  I used to think that. I genuinely did. I thought that the bar was all the way up in space and that it’s impossible to reach it. I was pretty lonely. Of course, I used to also think that my value was in my net worth and you could have seen all the way from space the “I’m an asshole and I don’t know why nobody will date me” vibes radiating off of me. Then I grew up, I chilled out, and I put conscious effort into things other than my career and being Good At Tech Stuff. Stuff like listening, and exercising my capacity for empathy, and trying to be pleasant to be around. You can project being likeable or interesting for a bit, but I found that it’s easier to be likeable and interesting instead. And suddenly I stopped finding it so difficult at all to find matches and find dates. I met my previous SO of three years on OKCupid and my current SO on Tinder, and it wasn’t until we’d been dating for quite a while that what I did for a living, all that Is This Man A Provider nonsense, even came up. The difficulty is between the ears of one party in this selection process. It’s a mix of getting over oneself and understanding that it’s all a numbers game besides, but one of those things doesn’t work without the other.
  - symlinkk 5y ago
    > listening, and exercising my capacity for empathy, and trying to be pleasant to be around None of that matters if you aren’t attractive. You have to be attractive for girls to swipe right on you and start a conversation in the first place.
    - rdtwo 5y ago
      It’s actually not that bad if you get out from behind the keyboard and practice. But it’s work and it could take a few years off practice 2-3 times a week.

paulryanrogers 5y ago

IDK starting the baby making process isn't terribly difficult once one has a partner. It's the carrying to term and everything after that is a lot of time, money, and energy. Some folks will struggle more with the partnering aspect than others. Or mustering the will and resources to begin parenting.

grvdrm 5y ago
Spend some time reading about infertility at the start of the baby making process and I think you’ll find that it can terribly difficult. Especially as you progress into your mid/late 30s (women). And it is that starting process that can also cost lots of money, time, and energy.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  Great call out. I forgot about some struggles in this regard myself, though IME dwarfed by the aftermath.
  - grvdrm 5y ago
    As two-kid dad, I definitely agree that the time, energy, and cost of delivering and raising kids is HUGE. It's not something that you should undervalue at all. But I think we have this unfortunate habit of severely underweighting the start process and things that aren't obvious. You probably experience lots of stress over the span of raising a kid (or more). Other people see that in the classic screaming-kid seemingly-helpless-parent visual. You may also experience that same stress, perhaps cumulatively more, just from the start because it's (1) VERY stressful when it doesn't work, and (2) a situation that can drag on for what feels like forever. So, everyone commiserates over work it is to raise a kid but few people talk openly or at all about how hard it is to start the process of having a kid.
    - rdtwo 5y ago
      The toolbox for doing it sucks too. The public school and childcare infrastructure is absolute shit and private is an expensive crapshoot
      - grvdrm 5y ago
        That sounds like the toolbox when your kid is born. You are probably right as it pertains to the US. I’m talking about pre-birth part.
      - fouc 5y ago
        That really depends on the country, the smart move may require relocating to raise kids elsewhere.
        rdtwo 5y ago
        Some jobs are unfortunately linked to areas where it’s really expensive to raise kids.
        jack_pp 5y ago
        I've just looked at this recently, boarding school in Spain is around 12k per year
        rdtwo 5y ago
        In the USA 12k buys you a half day of care or possibly a religious school if you are already a member
        jack_pp 5y ago
        That's why I mentioned boarding schools, you don't have to live there to send your kids to it and also it might be good for them, nurture independence and a lot of experience with a foreign culture while also giving you flexibility and easing the burden of child raising.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  Spend some time reading about infertility and you'll find that the number one cause for both men and women is obesity. Every single one of my friends or acquaintances who is obese has had trouble conceiving. Every. Single. One.
  - grvdrm 5y ago
    Sure, I didn’t have that in mind but I would say it augments my point rather than refutes it.

urthor 5y ago

Throwaway's point about how the system is extremely self-selecting is still a very good one though.

fusionbro 5y ago

symlinkk 5y ago

The selection process is on Tinder, not the maternity ward, and the bar is brutally high there for men.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> the bar is brutally high The men I've seen in maternity wards are just totally normal men.
eropple 5y ago
I used to think that. I genuinely did. I thought that the bar was all the way up in space and that it’s impossible to reach it. I was pretty lonely. Of course, I used to also think that my value was in my net worth and you could have seen all the way from space the “I’m an asshole and I don’t know why nobody will date me” vibes radiating off of me. Then I grew up, I chilled out, and I put conscious effort into things other than my career and being Good At Tech Stuff. Stuff like listening, and exercising my capacity for empathy, and trying to be pleasant to be around. You can project being likeable or interesting for a bit, but I found that it’s easier to be likeable and interesting instead. And suddenly I stopped finding it so difficult at all to find matches and find dates. I met my previous SO of three years on OKCupid and my current SO on Tinder, and it wasn’t until we’d been dating for quite a while that what I did for a living, all that Is This Man A Provider nonsense, even came up. The difficulty is between the ears of one party in this selection process. It’s a mix of getting over oneself and understanding that it’s all a numbers game besides, but one of those things doesn’t work without the other.
- symlinkk 5y ago
  > listening, and exercising my capacity for empathy, and trying to be pleasant to be around None of that matters if you aren’t attractive. You have to be attractive for girls to swipe right on you and start a conversation in the first place.
  - rdtwo 5y ago
    It’s actually not that bad if you get out from behind the keyboard and practice. But it’s work and it could take a few years off practice 2-3 times a week.