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Storage likely will be a non-issue once sodium ion batteries scale up, even cheaper and safer than LFP. A couple more years of scale efficiencies and alt+storag

Storage likely will be a non-issue once sodium ion batteries scale up, even cheaper and safer than LFP. A couple more years of scale efficiencies and alt+storage will be cheaper without subsidies. Consumer solar+storage will be cheaper than nat gas in a couple years with any rational subsidy. Land issues? Seriously? The land issue for solar is a non-issue, it's like fake hand-wringing by the oil astroturfers over birds and windmills when skyscrapers kill 100xs more birds. There's this type of land called desert. Also, there is this thing called roofs where modern solar panels only need a small part of the roof to do a suburban house or apartment building including recharging your EV. The land issue for wind is even less on an issue: As for wind, I don't know if you've seen windmills on farms but... yeah, the pole doesn't take up much space. Then there is offshore wind. Windmills can integrate with existing use land (why not nature preserves?), you don't need to dedicate acreage to windmill farms. Meanwhile, fusion reactors have a wee bit of problems with neutrons flying everywhere and turning the reactor vessels slightly radioactive from neutron capture. Maybe they'll fix that with good absorption spectrum elements, but let's not pretend fusion is 100% clean. https://thebulletin.org/2017/04/fusion-reactors-not-what-theyre-cracked-up-to-be/ https://thebulletin.org/2017/04/fusion-reactors-not-what-the... But again, the promise is there for fusion and LFTR/"new" fission. Keep the research, maybe the economics will turn around. Industry sure would need it to fully decarbonize, or, heck, space colonies. Or flying cars! Or any of the other sci-fi stuff we have given up on. Right now we have an existential threat from GW, and an actual industrialized / productized and economic path is right there: wind and solar. That's what we need money printing for.

dahfizz 5y ago
> Storage likely will be a non-issue once sodium ion batteries scale up, even cheaper and safer than LFP. Sure, once storage is solved it will be a non-issue. But it is not currently solved, and you will forgive my skepticism. I also never brought up land issues; I agree that it's not a real problem. TL;DR we need to be realistic about the capabilities of solar + wind. You argue that storage will solve itself. Your sibling argues that we don't need storage at all. The reality is that storage is a huge issue right now. It's the #1 technical issue stopping us from shutting down coal and natural gas plants.
sph 5y ago
You can't say fusion is impractical while saying solar and wind is better by hand waving all the current concerns and technological walls we still haven't solved. Plans on an whiteboard do not count, sorry. Storage isn't solved, land space isn't solved, efficiency isn't solved, just like fusion isn't a solved problem.
drjesusphd 5y ago
The land requirement for solar should not be so casually dismissed. To power the US energy needs, you need an area about the size of New Jersey. Also roughly equivalent to the area taken up by roads. The interstate highway system alone has been cited as the largest public works project in history, and that's "just" asphalt.
- AtlasBarfed 5y ago
  The LCOE of solar and wind is cheaper than all fossil fuel plants and nuclear plants. Existing generation will peak load. Look, any new nuclear or fusion project won't turn on for a decade. Given that even with inflation wind/solar STILL dropped in LCOE cost last year, and still likely has technological and economies of scale, you REALLY think a 10 year out fusion or nuclear project will launch at a price competitive with what even solar/wind + storage will be? Solar/wind likely will be half the inflation adjusted cost it currently is now even with storage in 10 years. LFP batteries are coming on the market now for storage that are half what lithium ion cost. Sodium will be release by CATL later this year or next. I'm not handwaving anything. There is a LOT of roof real estate. A fair amount more than the interstate system. The costs are already pushing wind/solar to deploy as fast as it can be made, it basically is a production scaling problem. New Jersey is not a large state, given we have west texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and lots of other desert. Which we don't need, because of rooftops and wind.

dahfizz 5y ago

> Storage likely will be a non-issue once sodium ion batteries scale up, even cheaper and safer than LFP. Sure, once storage is solved it will be a non-issue. But it is not currently solved, and you will forgive my skepticism. I also never brought up land issues; I agree that it's not a real problem. TL;DR we need to be realistic about the capabilities of solar + wind. You argue that storage will solve itself. Your sibling argues that we don't need storage at all. The reality is that storage is a huge issue right now. It's the #1 technical issue stopping us from shutting down coal and natural gas plants.

sph 5y ago

You can't say fusion is impractical while saying solar and wind is better by hand waving all the current concerns and technological walls we still haven't solved. Plans on an whiteboard do not count, sorry. Storage isn't solved, land space isn't solved, efficiency isn't solved, just like fusion isn't a solved problem.

drjesusphd 5y ago

The land requirement for solar should not be so casually dismissed. To power the US energy needs, you need an area about the size of New Jersey. Also roughly equivalent to the area taken up by roads. The interstate highway system alone has been cited as the largest public works project in history, and that's "just" asphalt.

AtlasBarfed 5y ago
The LCOE of solar and wind is cheaper than all fossil fuel plants and nuclear plants. Existing generation will peak load. Look, any new nuclear or fusion project won't turn on for a decade. Given that even with inflation wind/solar STILL dropped in LCOE cost last year, and still likely has technological and economies of scale, you REALLY think a 10 year out fusion or nuclear project will launch at a price competitive with what even solar/wind + storage will be? Solar/wind likely will be half the inflation adjusted cost it currently is now even with storage in 10 years. LFP batteries are coming on the market now for storage that are half what lithium ion cost. Sodium will be release by CATL later this year or next. I'm not handwaving anything. There is a LOT of roof real estate. A fair amount more than the interstate system. The costs are already pushing wind/solar to deploy as fast as it can be made, it basically is a production scaling problem. New Jersey is not a large state, given we have west texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and lots of other desert. Which we don't need, because of rooftops and wind.