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> will a dollar spent on wheelchair ramps in buildings across the USA give a greater quality of life improvement to the average american than a dollar spent on

> will a dollar spent on wheelchair ramps in buildings across the USA give a greater quality of life improvement to the average american than a dollar spent on medical research that tries to repair spinal nerves? Yes, I don’t know why this is even a question. Ramps support people who will never need spinal nerve repair. They support strollers, wheeled luggage, canes, crutches, fall risk folks, furniture movers, bike/scooters, etc.

londons_explore 5y ago
But medical research leads to treatments which may have far better quality of life improvements than ramps. And when discovered, those treatments can be used forever, whereas ramps require constant spending for every new or renovated building. Both are 'obviously' better than the other, depending on what you look at. Therefore the decision really should be made with more data.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  It’s not obviously better because you’re solving for one case when a ramp solves for multiple. At no point does solving nerve damage fix the fact a baby in a stroller has a better time on a ramp, unless you’re proposing a new technology that obviates wheels. But that just makes it the new ramp in its utility.
- mwcampbell 5y ago
  > But medical research leads to treatments which may have far better quality of life improvements than ramps. And when discovered, those treatments can be used forever, whereas ramps require constant spending for every new or renovated building. I think you make a good point here. Likewise, making software accessible, e.g. to blind people, requires effort for every GUI toolkit and non-trivial application. In the short term, that work has to be done, because it would be wrong to just leave blind people without a way to independently access software that might be critical to jobs, education, etc. But if we started funding research into curing or preventing all of the various causes of blindness now, then we could eventually solve the problem permanently. I'd have to find a different problem domain to work in, but I might be retired by then anyway.
  - paledot 5y ago
    Just like universal design in the physical world, universal design in software has knock-on benefits for everyone. A website that can be properly parsed by a screen reader can be scraped by search engines and archived efficiently. An application with proper tab indexes can be easily navigated by someone with a laptop rather than forcing them to reach for the trackpad. > curing or preventing all of the various causes of blindness All of them? Got a list?
- krisoft 5y ago
  > But medical research leads to treatments which may have far better quality of life improvements than ramps. There is so much wrong with what you say. Just look at the person in the very article. He doesn't walk with a hippity-hoppity bouncy gait. He walks with the help of a wheeled walking frame. He needs the ramps and the handholds to get to places. Do you have a proposal on how to spend all the ramp money to "medical research" that away? Look at any person who broke their leg and walks with a crutch, or a mother-to-be who is wobbly from all the extra weight of the baby, or an old person who needs a walking frame. Do you think if we just spend more money on medical research these conditions will go away? How are you proposing to medical research away the need for a baby stroller?
- ddingus 5y ago
  Hardly! And what you are omitting is the very high cost to people needing accessibility right now. Those discoveries are: Not a sure thing Not on an easy to quantify timeline Not broadly applicable. And this is not zero sum. Every dollar spent on accessibility pays off right now. Starts paying the moment access is improved. We can always, and should always, be advancing medicine. There is nothing in the way of better accessibility. We can do it now and it pays us well when we do. There are things in the way of, "let's just fix the people!" and the fact that we do not know how, do not know when we will know how, is in our way solid, like we can't miss it. Finally, treatments can be used, until they can't. And "can't" comes up an awful lot. Ramps and other devices just work. They work even when people do not need them to work, or people do not expect to need them. The world is just easier, and new moms, old people, and many others get the benefit. So, when "we can't" comes up, what is the answer for those people? I propose: Boy those accessibility spends are really helping a lot of people! Sure glad we did that work. And remember, YOU yourself, right there reading this, very well could be one of those people. You don't know. None of us does, which is why the work is being done.

londons_explore 5y ago

But medical research leads to treatments which may have far better quality of life improvements than ramps. And when discovered, those treatments can be used forever, whereas ramps require constant spending for every new or renovated building. Both are 'obviously' better than the other, depending on what you look at. Therefore the decision really should be made with more data.

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
It’s not obviously better because you’re solving for one case when a ramp solves for multiple. At no point does solving nerve damage fix the fact a baby in a stroller has a better time on a ramp, unless you’re proposing a new technology that obviates wheels. But that just makes it the new ramp in its utility.
mwcampbell 5y ago
> But medical research leads to treatments which may have far better quality of life improvements than ramps. And when discovered, those treatments can be used forever, whereas ramps require constant spending for every new or renovated building. I think you make a good point here. Likewise, making software accessible, e.g. to blind people, requires effort for every GUI toolkit and non-trivial application. In the short term, that work has to be done, because it would be wrong to just leave blind people without a way to independently access software that might be critical to jobs, education, etc. But if we started funding research into curing or preventing all of the various causes of blindness now, then we could eventually solve the problem permanently. I'd have to find a different problem domain to work in, but I might be retired by then anyway.
- paledot 5y ago
  Just like universal design in the physical world, universal design in software has knock-on benefits for everyone. A website that can be properly parsed by a screen reader can be scraped by search engines and archived efficiently. An application with proper tab indexes can be easily navigated by someone with a laptop rather than forcing them to reach for the trackpad. > curing or preventing all of the various causes of blindness All of them? Got a list?
krisoft 5y ago
> But medical research leads to treatments which may have far better quality of life improvements than ramps. There is so much wrong with what you say. Just look at the person in the very article. He doesn't walk with a hippity-hoppity bouncy gait. He walks with the help of a wheeled walking frame. He needs the ramps and the handholds to get to places. Do you have a proposal on how to spend all the ramp money to "medical research" that away? Look at any person who broke their leg and walks with a crutch, or a mother-to-be who is wobbly from all the extra weight of the baby, or an old person who needs a walking frame. Do you think if we just spend more money on medical research these conditions will go away? How are you proposing to medical research away the need for a baby stroller?
ddingus 5y ago
Hardly! And what you are omitting is the very high cost to people needing accessibility right now. Those discoveries are: Not a sure thing Not on an easy to quantify timeline Not broadly applicable. And this is not zero sum. Every dollar spent on accessibility pays off right now. Starts paying the moment access is improved. We can always, and should always, be advancing medicine. There is nothing in the way of better accessibility. We can do it now and it pays us well when we do. There are things in the way of, "let's just fix the people!" and the fact that we do not know how, do not know when we will know how, is in our way solid, like we can't miss it. Finally, treatments can be used, until they can't. And "can't" comes up an awful lot. Ramps and other devices just work. They work even when people do not need them to work, or people do not expect to need them. The world is just easier, and new moms, old people, and many others get the benefit. So, when "we can't" comes up, what is the answer for those people? I propose: Boy those accessibility spends are really helping a lot of people! Sure glad we did that work. And remember, YOU yourself, right there reading this, very well could be one of those people. You don't know. None of us does, which is why the work is being done.