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This reads like a manager who has ignored feedback for years and when criticized expects a formatted list of every problem they ignored. I don't see any point

This reads like a manager who has ignored feedback for years and when criticized expects a formatted list of every problem they ignored. I don't see any point in doing this on Twitter other than this dev wanting confirmation bias their product is good. Overwhelmingly only apple users whom like apple are going to be following apple employees and participate in their discussions. This by its nature excludes a significant amount of criticism. It's a poor forum for actual content. Take something that works on Chrome. Does it work on Safari? If not, fix it. There you go. I googled and found plenty of contemporary css bugs, js oddities/lack of support and feature differences.

HWR_14 5y ago
> Take something that works on Chrome. Does it work on Safari? If not, fix it. Why is Safari responsible for slavishly copying what Google developers dream up and shove in production? Does Safari not having FLOC indicate they are missing a vital feature?
- Steltek 5y ago
  A bit of a strawman, there's a big different in user benefit between certain CSS/JS features and FLOC. The web as a whole would be better if Safarai/iOS supported PWAs.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > The web as a whole would be better if Safarai/iOS supported PWAs They support PWAs.
    - jtbayly 5y ago
      Without notifications, they cannot really be called PWA’s, in my opinion. Notifications are a basic part of apps.
      - HWR_14 5y ago
        Push notifications were supported in the same update as PWAs.
        jtbayly 5y ago
        They have never been supported in Safari for iOS, where it matters much more.
        HWR_14 5y ago
        They haven't been released yet for iOS. But they were announced at the same time PWAs downloaded as apps were announced. I think with iOS 16??
        jtbayly 5y ago
        I thought the API was added in the latest beta, in experimental mode, not working, and without announcement. Link to the announcement?
        HWR_14 5y ago
        I only remember reading it on HN. Did I misread it or misremember it? I'll be honest, I don't currently need to worry about push notifications, so I wasn't super aware of the details.
        jtbayly 5y ago
        Here's the link to the section: https://firt.dev/ios-15.4b#web-push-notifications-on-ios－with-a-catch https://firt.dev/ios-15.4b#web-push-notifications-on-ios－wit... > 1- It's a disabled-by-default experiment at this time > 2- The APIs are there, but they are not working
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        > Without notifications, they cannot really be called PWA’s, in my opinion. Ah yes. "Your opinion". There's no such thing as "PWAs". There's a dozen or more standards, most of which are supported by Safari. Of course, everyone hails their own subjective subset of those standards as "the one true PWA support". If Safari ever supports push notifications, there will be some other standard that Safari must support to "properly support PWAs".
  - the_other 5y ago
    Please provide proof of the assertion the web would be better if Safari suppored PWAs. I want to see graphs from the user side, not from the revenue side. Personally, I suspect the only thing which would be better if Safari supported PWAs would be that some companies would see more engagement with notifications. But this is just opinion.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    > there's a big different in user benefit between certain CSS/JS features and FLOC Yes, there is. And the method I'm responding to doesn't distinguish between them. Hence, it's a bad method. If only there was some group, some committee, that could form a consensus on what was important. That way every developer wouldn't individually disagree with specific decisions Apple made. For example, I'm not sure of any CSS/JS features Chrome has and Safari lacks that I want.
floatingatoll 5y ago
Bungie, another tech company, has been making this exact request of its community for years now, and their community has for years now found every excuse under the sun to ignore it. Bungie asks “tell us what’s broken, tell us what feels wrong”, and their community responds instead “recurring feature request X, cynical dismissal of intentions”, and then complains that bugs aren’t getting fixed in Bungie’s products. This self-fulfilling prophecy of refusal, complaint, and outrage repeats on an annual cycle, and yet these users continue to ignore pleas for useful feedback. As of when I posted this comment, most of HN’s discussion of this post is a stellar example of this Internet forum social behavior. Safari asks “tell us what’s buggy and broken, not about recurring feature requests”, and this community is responding with “recurring feature request X, cynical dismissal of intentions”. There are three or four actual real bug reports in this discussion, but they’re drowned out by the non-curious ‘feature’ and ‘cynical’ repetition. I’m kind of disappointed that they got a hundred plus viable bug reports on Twitter, but only a couple from HN. Given how much so many of us sneer at Twitter, it’s upsetting to see Twitter dramatically outshine us technically. We’re Hacker News, this ought to be a piece of cake. For example: I wish that Elon Musk wasn’t prideful and troll-y online (these are feature requests that his personality team has refused us), but if he asked me to name a bug in Tesla’s cars that he isn’t aware of, I’d point out that Tesla cars allow you to drive at unsafe speeds when the fog lights are turned on, which is wasting untold megawatts of Supercharger time per year because drivers either don’t know that fog lights aren’t effective above a certain speed and because there’s no chime or automatic-off setting to prevent energy waste. Yes, Elon’s a jerk, and yes, I have feature requests and cynicism about that — but I’d leap for the opportunity to even have a chance at posting one paragraph that cuts all Teslas’ watts per mile by any amount at all. I wish others here found that as rewarding as I do.
- rsyring 5y ago
  I find it ironic that you criticise feature request feedback for big report requests and then your Tesla example "bug report" is arguably an enhancement request, not a bug. Maybe the real lesson here is that the line between bug and enhancement is sometimes fuzzy and subjective.
  - 5y ago
pygy_ 5y ago
Jen Simons used to work for Mozilla and recently jumped ship. She's a CSS expert, that what I knew her for before this post, and I expect her followers are from varied backgrounds in the Web dev scene. Having Apple publicly engage with the dev community like this is a very welcome.

HWR_14 5y ago

> Take something that works on Chrome. Does it work on Safari? If not, fix it. Why is Safari responsible for slavishly copying what Google developers dream up and shove in production? Does Safari not having FLOC indicate they are missing a vital feature?

Steltek 5y ago
A bit of a strawman, there's a big different in user benefit between certain CSS/JS features and FLOC. The web as a whole would be better if Safarai/iOS supported PWAs.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > The web as a whole would be better if Safarai/iOS supported PWAs They support PWAs.
  - jtbayly 5y ago
    Without notifications, they cannot really be called PWA’s, in my opinion. Notifications are a basic part of apps.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      Push notifications were supported in the same update as PWAs.
      - jtbayly 5y ago
        They have never been supported in Safari for iOS, where it matters much more.
        HWR_14 5y ago
        They haven't been released yet for iOS. But they were announced at the same time PWAs downloaded as apps were announced. I think with iOS 16??
        jtbayly 5y ago
        I thought the API was added in the latest beta, in experimental mode, not working, and without announcement. Link to the announcement?
        HWR_14 5y ago
        I only remember reading it on HN. Did I misread it or misremember it? I'll be honest, I don't currently need to worry about push notifications, so I wasn't super aware of the details.
        jtbayly 5y ago
        Here's the link to the section: https://firt.dev/ios-15.4b#web-push-notifications-on-ios－with-a-catch https://firt.dev/ios-15.4b#web-push-notifications-on-ios－wit... > 1- It's a disabled-by-default experiment at this time > 2- The APIs are there, but they are not working
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      > Without notifications, they cannot really be called PWA’s, in my opinion. Ah yes. "Your opinion". There's no such thing as "PWAs". There's a dozen or more standards, most of which are supported by Safari. Of course, everyone hails their own subjective subset of those standards as "the one true PWA support". If Safari ever supports push notifications, there will be some other standard that Safari must support to "properly support PWAs".
- the_other 5y ago
  Please provide proof of the assertion the web would be better if Safari suppored PWAs. I want to see graphs from the user side, not from the revenue side. Personally, I suspect the only thing which would be better if Safari supported PWAs would be that some companies would see more engagement with notifications. But this is just opinion.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  > there's a big different in user benefit between certain CSS/JS features and FLOC Yes, there is. And the method I'm responding to doesn't distinguish between them. Hence, it's a bad method. If only there was some group, some committee, that could form a consensus on what was important. That way every developer wouldn't individually disagree with specific decisions Apple made. For example, I'm not sure of any CSS/JS features Chrome has and Safari lacks that I want.

floatingatoll 5y ago

Bungie, another tech company, has been making this exact request of its community for years now, and their community has for years now found every excuse under the sun to ignore it. Bungie asks “tell us what’s broken, tell us what feels wrong”, and their community responds instead “recurring feature request X, cynical dismissal of intentions”, and then complains that bugs aren’t getting fixed in Bungie’s products. This self-fulfilling prophecy of refusal, complaint, and outrage repeats on an annual cycle, and yet these users continue to ignore pleas for useful feedback. As of when I posted this comment, most of HN’s discussion of this post is a stellar example of this Internet forum social behavior. Safari asks “tell us what’s buggy and broken, not about recurring feature requests”, and this community is responding with “recurring feature request X, cynical dismissal of intentions”. There are three or four actual real bug reports in this discussion, but they’re drowned out by the non-curious ‘feature’ and ‘cynical’ repetition. I’m kind of disappointed that they got a hundred plus viable bug reports on Twitter, but only a couple from HN. Given how much so many of us sneer at Twitter, it’s upsetting to see Twitter dramatically outshine us technically. We’re Hacker News, this ought to be a piece of cake. For example: I wish that Elon Musk wasn’t prideful and troll-y online (these are feature requests that his personality team has refused us), but if he asked me to name a bug in Tesla’s cars that he isn’t aware of, I’d point out that Tesla cars allow you to drive at unsafe speeds when the fog lights are turned on, which is wasting untold megawatts of Supercharger time per year because drivers either don’t know that fog lights aren’t effective above a certain speed and because there’s no chime or automatic-off setting to prevent energy waste. Yes, Elon’s a jerk, and yes, I have feature requests and cynicism about that — but I’d leap for the opportunity to even have a chance at posting one paragraph that cuts all Teslas’ watts per mile by any amount at all. I wish others here found that as rewarding as I do.

rsyring 5y ago
I find it ironic that you criticise feature request feedback for big report requests and then your Tesla example "bug report" is arguably an enhancement request, not a bug. Maybe the real lesson here is that the line between bug and enhancement is sometimes fuzzy and subjective.
- 5y ago

pygy_ 5y ago

Jen Simons used to work for Mozilla and recently jumped ship. She's a CSS expert, that what I knew her for before this post, and I expect her followers are from varied backgrounds in the Web dev scene. Having Apple publicly engage with the dev community like this is a very welcome.