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- Lack of proper support for PWAs (this alone would likely take care of most complaints/scrutiny about AppStore monopoly). Especially since WebKit is forced ont

- Lack of proper support for PWAs (this alone would likely take care of most complaints/scrutiny about AppStore monopoly). Especially since WebKit is forced onto any browser for iOS (there's no other choice for developers). - Lack of proper support for real extensions; the most recent versions have basically neutered extensions for Safari to the point of being useless - as I say: "if it doesn't run uBlock Origin, it's not a real browser"; this is mostly why I've moved to Firefox as my main browser now.

dmitriid 5y ago
> Lack of proper support for PWAs As always: what is "proper support" as there's literally no such thing as a PWA standard. There are dozens (if not more) standards that everyone picks and choses from to call their own selection "the one true PWA standard". And the "no proper support" usually boils down to "no push notifications".
- sebastien_b 5y ago
  Being on par with what other popular browsers implement.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > Being on par with what other popular browsers implement. 1. There are no "other popular browsers". There's the dominant Chrome. There's Safari. There's Mozilla which is rapidly declining into obscurity. Maybe there's MS Edge? 2. What's on par? Define this "on par" Example: Safari doesn't implement "Add to home screen". Neither does Firefox. Is this on par enough? Same for Background Sync API etc. So. What is this "proper PWA support" you're talking about?
    - the_other 5y ago
      > Safari doesn't implement "Add to home screen". Apple invented "Add to home screen" (from what I recall).
    - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
      > 1. There are no "other popular browsers". Okay, fine; be on par with the one browser that is an order of magnitude more popular, then. > 2. What's on par? Define this "on par" Would an end user trying to use a web app as if it were native be satisfied? > Example: Safari doesn't implement "Add to home screen". Neither does Firefox. It... Literally does? Three-dot menu > "Add to Home screen". This is on Android; if it's not present on iOS then it's almost certainly Apple's fault somehow so they can fix it.
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        > be on par with the one browser that is an order of magnitude more popular, then So, once again: - define "on par" - explain why they need to slavishly copy that one browser without considering whether it's worth doing? > Would an end user trying to use a web app as if it were native be satisfied? No, because this is even more ambiguous than "on par". Example: usb/bluetooth/etc. Native apps use them. Chrome put up some "standards" and rushed to implement them. Both Safari and Mozilla consider these harmful on many, many valid points. Is this required for a "proper PWA support"? Do they just unquestioningly copy what Chrome does? So, the more this conversation goes the more I'm convinced you neither know what "PWA support" actually means, nor what Safari actually supports. > It... Literally does? I looked it up on Can I Use. It was for desktop versions. On iOS you can "Add to home screen", too (through the share menu which is now a kitchen sink for everything, not just share)
        yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
        To your first 2 points: Yes, it's quite possible that some features shouldn't be implemented, and yes, it's unlikely that there is a simple rule to describe all the cases where things should and shouldn't be implemented. But that doesn't mean that they're not drawing the line in the wrong place now; it seems like you're arguing that because something is subjective it's irrelevant. >> It... Literally does? > I looked it up on Can I Use. It was for desktop versions. I answered that after literally clicking the menu item and making sure it worked on my phone. My guess, after reading through https://caniuse.com/web-app-manifest https://caniuse.com/web-app-manifest , is that maybe there's something about service workers or background processing that they're not doing, but just sticking an icon on the homescreen, empirically, works fine.
    - tempodox 5y ago
      > Safari doesn't implement "Add to home screen" You can add to home screen on iOS when you put <meta name="apple-mobile-web-app-capable" content="yes"> in the <head> of your HTML. The WebView then opens from the home screen without browser UI.
      - Joeri 5y ago
        But you still have to send users to the share menu to actually add to the home screen which is not obvious. In other mobile browsers you can show them a prompt.
        tempodox 5y ago
        It may be a matter of personal taste, but I actually prefer the Share menu over a prompt because it doesn't waste real estate on an already small screen where it's unwanted or superfluous. Giving users the option but not pestering them with it is better UX in my opinion.
        ksec 5y ago
        In my opinion A lot of these are only necessary due to Apple's App Store restriction. 80% of Apps doesn't need to be Native Apps. A Restaurant food menu ordering shouldn't be an App that requires Apple's approval. Along with events, content consumption Apps etc. However having an icon on home screen is possibly one of the most expensive real estate.
    - Steltek 5y ago
      > Example: Safari doesn't implement "Add to home screen". Neither does Firefox. Firefox/Android has had "Add to Home Screen" for a long time now?
- jtbayly 5y ago
  So… no push notifications means it’s broken. Is that hard to understand?
  - pwinnski 5y ago
    I hope that Safari's PWA support remains broken forever by your defintion, then.
    - jtbayly 5y ago
      As I wrote elsewhere last week, there’s no reason I shouldn’t be able to be notified by the apps I do want to be notified by just because there are 10,000 websites I don’t want notifications from.
      - KerrAvon 5y ago
        What website could you possibly want a notification from? Good lord, most native apps shouldn’t be allowed to post notifications.
        jtbayly 5y ago
        As I said, just because most people don't want most apps to notify them doesn't mean that nobody wants any notifications from any app. Here's a list I wrote elsewhere in this thread: * todos * reminders * calendars * chat * phone And the list goes on. There are many others where the app might be possible, but for many people in many cases those apps are useless without notifications. Stocks, forum apps, etc. Do I want stock notifications? No, I don't. But if I did decide to start day trading, I couldn't use a PWA unless it could notify me. I'm a member of a dozen forums, most of which I want no notifications from. But one of them I administer, and I need notifications. Another one, I need notifications from topics I'm following. 99% of apps on my phone aren't allowed to notify me, but I wouldn't call my phone a smart phone if it couldn't notify me when I want it. The same goes for apps, whether native or PWA.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
floatingatoll 5y ago
Those are design decisions that result in missing functionality, not unintentional defects (“bugs”) in shipping functionality.
jtbayly 5y ago
Yes. Ublock Origin , please!

dmitriid 5y ago

> Lack of proper support for PWAs As always: what is "proper support" as there's literally no such thing as a PWA standard. There are dozens (if not more) standards that everyone picks and choses from to call their own selection "the one true PWA standard". And the "no proper support" usually boils down to "no push notifications".

sebastien_b 5y ago
Being on par with what other popular browsers implement.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > Being on par with what other popular browsers implement. 1. There are no "other popular browsers". There's the dominant Chrome. There's Safari. There's Mozilla which is rapidly declining into obscurity. Maybe there's MS Edge? 2. What's on par? Define this "on par" Example: Safari doesn't implement "Add to home screen". Neither does Firefox. Is this on par enough? Same for Background Sync API etc. So. What is this "proper PWA support" you're talking about?
  - the_other 5y ago
    > Safari doesn't implement "Add to home screen". Apple invented "Add to home screen" (from what I recall).
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    > 1. There are no "other popular browsers". Okay, fine; be on par with the one browser that is an order of magnitude more popular, then. > 2. What's on par? Define this "on par" Would an end user trying to use a web app as if it were native be satisfied? > Example: Safari doesn't implement "Add to home screen". Neither does Firefox. It... Literally does? Three-dot menu > "Add to Home screen". This is on Android; if it's not present on iOS then it's almost certainly Apple's fault somehow so they can fix it.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      > be on par with the one browser that is an order of magnitude more popular, then So, once again: - define "on par" - explain why they need to slavishly copy that one browser without considering whether it's worth doing? > Would an end user trying to use a web app as if it were native be satisfied? No, because this is even more ambiguous than "on par". Example: usb/bluetooth/etc. Native apps use them. Chrome put up some "standards" and rushed to implement them. Both Safari and Mozilla consider these harmful on many, many valid points. Is this required for a "proper PWA support"? Do they just unquestioningly copy what Chrome does? So, the more this conversation goes the more I'm convinced you neither know what "PWA support" actually means, nor what Safari actually supports. > It... Literally does? I looked it up on Can I Use. It was for desktop versions. On iOS you can "Add to home screen", too (through the share menu which is now a kitchen sink for everything, not just share)
      - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
        To your first 2 points: Yes, it's quite possible that some features shouldn't be implemented, and yes, it's unlikely that there is a simple rule to describe all the cases where things should and shouldn't be implemented. But that doesn't mean that they're not drawing the line in the wrong place now; it seems like you're arguing that because something is subjective it's irrelevant. >> It... Literally does? > I looked it up on Can I Use. It was for desktop versions. I answered that after literally clicking the menu item and making sure it worked on my phone. My guess, after reading through https://caniuse.com/web-app-manifest https://caniuse.com/web-app-manifest , is that maybe there's something about service workers or background processing that they're not doing, but just sticking an icon on the homescreen, empirically, works fine.
  - tempodox 5y ago
    > Safari doesn't implement "Add to home screen" You can add to home screen on iOS when you put <meta name="apple-mobile-web-app-capable" content="yes"> in the <head> of your HTML. The WebView then opens from the home screen without browser UI.
    - Joeri 5y ago
      But you still have to send users to the share menu to actually add to the home screen which is not obvious. In other mobile browsers you can show them a prompt.
      - tempodox 5y ago
        It may be a matter of personal taste, but I actually prefer the Share menu over a prompt because it doesn't waste real estate on an already small screen where it's unwanted or superfluous. Giving users the option but not pestering them with it is better UX in my opinion.
        ksec 5y ago
        In my opinion A lot of these are only necessary due to Apple's App Store restriction. 80% of Apps doesn't need to be Native Apps. A Restaurant food menu ordering shouldn't be an App that requires Apple's approval. Along with events, content consumption Apps etc. However having an icon on home screen is possibly one of the most expensive real estate.
  - Steltek 5y ago
    > Example: Safari doesn't implement "Add to home screen". Neither does Firefox. Firefox/Android has had "Add to Home Screen" for a long time now?
jtbayly 5y ago
So… no push notifications means it’s broken. Is that hard to understand?
- pwinnski 5y ago
  I hope that Safari's PWA support remains broken forever by your defintion, then.
  - jtbayly 5y ago
    As I wrote elsewhere last week, there’s no reason I shouldn’t be able to be notified by the apps I do want to be notified by just because there are 10,000 websites I don’t want notifications from.
    - KerrAvon 5y ago
      What website could you possibly want a notification from? Good lord, most native apps shouldn’t be allowed to post notifications.
      - jtbayly 5y ago
        As I said, just because most people don't want most apps to notify them doesn't mean that nobody wants any notifications from any app. Here's a list I wrote elsewhere in this thread: * todos * reminders * calendars * chat * phone And the list goes on. There are many others where the app might be possible, but for many people in many cases those apps are useless without notifications. Stocks, forum apps, etc. Do I want stock notifications? No, I don't. But if I did decide to start day trading, I couldn't use a PWA unless it could notify me. I'm a member of a dozen forums, most of which I want no notifications from. But one of them I administer, and I need notifications. Another one, I need notifications from topics I'm following. 99% of apps on my phone aren't allowed to notify me, but I wouldn't call my phone a smart phone if it couldn't notify me when I want it. The same goes for apps, whether native or PWA.
- dmitriid 5y ago

floatingatoll 5y ago

Those are design decisions that result in missing functionality, not unintentional defects (“bugs”) in shipping functionality.

jtbayly 5y ago

Yes. Ublock Origin , please!