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> ... If I understand your nonsensical ramblings correctly. If you think they are nonsensical, you do not understand what I am saying. Yes, countries can "wor

> ... If I understand your nonsensical ramblings correctly. If you think they are nonsensical, you do not understand what I am saying. Yes, countries can "work together without being part of the same trading bloc" but trade is not the limit of what Brexit changed. Brexit removes us from the international legal agreements that underpinned that trade. It also removed us from the free movement clause, which is crucial to a lot of science-industry collaborations (the free movement principle was essentially invented to allow professional collaboration in the energy industry). Finally it also removed us from the legal frameworks that underpin several European science funding agreements. Every agreement has to be rewritten, at cost to the process. And every time it is rewritten, the net result for Britain is substantially worse than if we'd not done it. Because you cannot hope to get full membership of any club without agreeing to all the rules. From the article: > The UK is a participant, too. Its full involvement in ITER, however, will require first for Britain to "associate" to certain EU science programmes, something that so far has been held up by disagreements over post-Brexit trading arrangements, particularly in relation to Northern Ireland. Here is just one example of that: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/08/uk-and-european-scientists-urge-eu-to-allow-uk-access-to-10bn-fund-brexit https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/08/uk-and-euro... From that article: > The EU agreed to associate membership for the UK as part of the wider Brexit trade deal struck on Christmas Eve 2020 but it has still not ratified the deal or a similar one with Switzerland, held up by a dispute over a draft treaty binding the country to the bloc. We didn't need to do any of this, there have been no benefits from any of this, and there are no meaningful projected benefits for any of this in our lifetimes.

CodeGlitch 5y ago
> If you think they are nonsensical, you do not understand what I am saying. And I thankyou for clarification :) > but trade is not the limit of what Brexit changed. Here in lies the problem that many Brexitiers had with the EU - it wasn't just a trading bloc, the "club" had a lot of baggage that few people understood - and when people don't understand something, they fear/misstrust it. The message around leaving was focused on GDP and whether we would have roaming chargers or not... and this message fell flat with a lot of voters. I blame the remain side with arrogance and a complete lack of understanding how to deliver a good message. I voted remain BTW, but feel we had a fair vote and it is what it is.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  I think there are some specific failings with the remain argument -- people failed to make the case that is surely now obvious that you can't just unpick this without major fallout. Though they definitely did try. The problem is they also came up against vile, populist hate about Syrian immigrants, Romanian neighbours, people not speaking english on buses, fake news about pillow regulations; it went on and on. And a lot of that stuff really was funded by deeply shady money. Brexit was the first real demonstration of how good faith cannot possibly counter weaponised, well-backed bad faith, IMO. It is what it is, I agree, and alas it is wholly irreversible. But at least within five years we won't have to worry about how Great Britain and Northern Ireland repositions itself within Europe, because the consequences of the vote will be the end of that too.
  - CodeGlitch 5y ago
    > The problem is they also came up against vile, populist hate about Syrian immigrants, Romanian neighbours, people not speaking english on buses, fake news about pillow regulations; Except there is some truth/validity in all of these - they are proxies. The pillow/banana stuff was about over-regulation by the EU. People not speaking the native language on buses is an indication of a a loss of British culture (people will be generally protective of their own culture). Romanian neighbours is about a fear of losing one's low-paying job to an immigrant. These are all valid worries of many people in the UK. Calling them "vile", "populist" is what I'm talking about with regard to remain arrogance. Ignore voter's fears at your peril.
    - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
      The pillow stuff was fraudulent, sorry. You can't hold up a bed pillow and say all these regulations cover pillows when almost all of the uses of the word "pillow" were from engineering safety regulations (pillow blocks etc.) The Syrian immigration thing was based on a lie (and about specific fearmongering concerning Turkey's supposed accession to the EU -- a process that has entirely stalled and is even in reverse because Turkey cannot join the EU until it satisfies the EU's demands). It was backed up by one of the most despicable political leaflets in British history: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-vote-leave-accused-of-fanning-the-flames-of-division-after-publishing-controversial-map-a7067701.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum... (I received this pamphlet and it remains the only thing I have ever ceremonially burned while cursing people) They were vile, populist-oriented slurs. It was awful, disgusting politics.

CodeGlitch 5y ago

> If you think they are nonsensical, you do not understand what I am saying. And I thankyou for clarification :) > but trade is not the limit of what Brexit changed. Here in lies the problem that many Brexitiers had with the EU - it wasn't just a trading bloc, the "club" had a lot of baggage that few people understood - and when people don't understand something, they fear/misstrust it. The message around leaving was focused on GDP and whether we would have roaming chargers or not... and this message fell flat with a lot of voters. I blame the remain side with arrogance and a complete lack of understanding how to deliver a good message. I voted remain BTW, but feel we had a fair vote and it is what it is.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago
I think there are some specific failings with the remain argument -- people failed to make the case that is surely now obvious that you can't just unpick this without major fallout. Though they definitely did try. The problem is they also came up against vile, populist hate about Syrian immigrants, Romanian neighbours, people not speaking english on buses, fake news about pillow regulations; it went on and on. And a lot of that stuff really was funded by deeply shady money. Brexit was the first real demonstration of how good faith cannot possibly counter weaponised, well-backed bad faith, IMO. It is what it is, I agree, and alas it is wholly irreversible. But at least within five years we won't have to worry about how Great Britain and Northern Ireland repositions itself within Europe, because the consequences of the vote will be the end of that too.
- CodeGlitch 5y ago
  > The problem is they also came up against vile, populist hate about Syrian immigrants, Romanian neighbours, people not speaking english on buses, fake news about pillow regulations; Except there is some truth/validity in all of these - they are proxies. The pillow/banana stuff was about over-regulation by the EU. People not speaking the native language on buses is an indication of a a loss of British culture (people will be generally protective of their own culture). Romanian neighbours is about a fear of losing one's low-paying job to an immigrant. These are all valid worries of many people in the UK. Calling them "vile", "populist" is what I'm talking about with regard to remain arrogance. Ignore voter's fears at your peril.
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    The pillow stuff was fraudulent, sorry. You can't hold up a bed pillow and say all these regulations cover pillows when almost all of the uses of the word "pillow" were from engineering safety regulations (pillow blocks etc.) The Syrian immigration thing was based on a lie (and about specific fearmongering concerning Turkey's supposed accession to the EU -- a process that has entirely stalled and is even in reverse because Turkey cannot join the EU until it satisfies the EU's demands). It was backed up by one of the most despicable political leaflets in British history: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-vote-leave-accused-of-fanning-the-flames-of-division-after-publishing-controversial-map-a7067701.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum... (I received this pamphlet and it remains the only thing I have ever ceremonially burned while cursing people) They were vile, populist-oriented slurs. It was awful, disgusting politics.