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Or maybe some of us are aware of huge amounts of public grants that went into building up the foundations of that industry till it could operate without induced

by p_l 5y ago

Or maybe some of us are aware of huge amounts of public grants that went into building up the foundations of that industry till it could operate without induced demand. And many of us also are aware of different constraints impacting monopoly creation and how capital intensive areas behave differently.

refurb 5y ago
Sure, the military bootstrapped the semi-conductor industry, but we’re a long fucking way from the 8088 processor - thanks to capitalism. I mean for $1,000 I can have effectively a 1990’s supercomputer in my pocket. The government didn’t do that, greedy capitalists did.
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  Greedy capitalists use the roads, power, water, education system and political stability that government creates.
- Jasper_ 5y ago
  One of the most important things for a modern cell phone is the GPS receiver. Most couldn't function without it. GPS was and continues to be a system funded by the US government. In fact, the opening of GPS civilian use in 1999 directly corresponds with the global rollout of cell phones in general.
  - cesarb 5y ago
    A modern cell phone can function perfectly fine without a GPS receiver; only things like map functionality would be lost without it. What needs a GPS receiver (or other timing synchronization source; GPS is a simple and inexpensive one) are AFAIK the cell phone base stations.
- p_l 5y ago
  If you think government push ended with 8088, I fear you don't have any idea of history. Even in early 1990s, some companies pushing the edge only had customers because DARPA bankrolled it pretty much directly, a lot of success for many foundational tech in modern devices happened thanks to not just government grants for research, but grants for things like MOSIS. Took some serious decades and big money to switch from government having outsized impact on demand.
- acdha 5y ago
  > I mean for $1,000 I can have effectively a 1990’s supercomputer in my pocket. The government didn’t do that, greedy capitalists did. Heavily reliant on research funded by the government, ambitious funding for things the internet, the financial stability and access to markets supported by the government, etc. Neither side of this is doing it on their own — it’s like trying to decide whether the wheel or chain deserves credit for making your bicycle work.
  - refurb 5y ago
    The point is - the government did not and would not create the phone in my pocket. Greedy capitalists trying to make more and more money figured they could do that by making better and better phones.
    - acdha 5y ago
      Nobody is saying the government made your phone. The point is that those private companies depended on a business environment stabilized by the government, workers educated by the government, research funded by the government, business opportunities created or protected by the government (e.g. patents), etc. I realize there’s a lot of libertarian propaganda in certain circles but it’s not like the last century’s guiding policies weren’t regularly recognized & discussed.
      - refurb 5y ago
        I'm not sure what you're trying to say. In communist Russia the government provided stability, research funded by the government, etc and could barely feed their population. Capitalism is why we have super computers in our pocket.
        p_l 5y ago
        Yet the standard of living in USSR was steadily rising compared to what it was before. Thing is, those capitalists wouldn't have markets to exploit or tools to do so if not for over 50 years of government inducing the demand ("Silicon Valley" literally started because US Navy colocated a bunch of aviation projects, and later it pulled electronics industry there)
- jen20 5y ago
  You can only have that because said supercomputer is manufactured in China, with semiconductors manufactured in Taiwan. Greedy capitalists absolutely did that, you’re right - and gutted the US in the process.

by p_l 5y ago

refurb 5y ago

Sure, the military bootstrapped the semi-conductor industry, but we’re a long fucking way from the 8088 processor - thanks to capitalism. I mean for $1,000 I can have effectively a 1990’s supercomputer in my pocket. The government didn’t do that, greedy capitalists did.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago
Greedy capitalists use the roads, power, water, education system and political stability that government creates.
Jasper_ 5y ago
One of the most important things for a modern cell phone is the GPS receiver. Most couldn't function without it. GPS was and continues to be a system funded by the US government. In fact, the opening of GPS civilian use in 1999 directly corresponds with the global rollout of cell phones in general.
- cesarb 5y ago
  A modern cell phone can function perfectly fine without a GPS receiver; only things like map functionality would be lost without it. What needs a GPS receiver (or other timing synchronization source; GPS is a simple and inexpensive one) are AFAIK the cell phone base stations.
p_l 5y ago
If you think government push ended with 8088, I fear you don't have any idea of history. Even in early 1990s, some companies pushing the edge only had customers because DARPA bankrolled it pretty much directly, a lot of success for many foundational tech in modern devices happened thanks to not just government grants for research, but grants for things like MOSIS. Took some serious decades and big money to switch from government having outsized impact on demand.
acdha 5y ago
> I mean for $1,000 I can have effectively a 1990’s supercomputer in my pocket. The government didn’t do that, greedy capitalists did. Heavily reliant on research funded by the government, ambitious funding for things the internet, the financial stability and access to markets supported by the government, etc. Neither side of this is doing it on their own — it’s like trying to decide whether the wheel or chain deserves credit for making your bicycle work.
- refurb 5y ago
  The point is - the government did not and would not create the phone in my pocket. Greedy capitalists trying to make more and more money figured they could do that by making better and better phones.
  - acdha 5y ago
    Nobody is saying the government made your phone. The point is that those private companies depended on a business environment stabilized by the government, workers educated by the government, research funded by the government, business opportunities created or protected by the government (e.g. patents), etc. I realize there’s a lot of libertarian propaganda in certain circles but it’s not like the last century’s guiding policies weren’t regularly recognized & discussed.
    - refurb 5y ago
      I'm not sure what you're trying to say. In communist Russia the government provided stability, research funded by the government, etc and could barely feed their population. Capitalism is why we have super computers in our pocket.
      - p_l 5y ago
        Yet the standard of living in USSR was steadily rising compared to what it was before. Thing is, those capitalists wouldn't have markets to exploit or tools to do so if not for over 50 years of government inducing the demand ("Silicon Valley" literally started because US Navy colocated a bunch of aviation projects, and later it pulled electronics industry there)
jen20 5y ago
You can only have that because said supercomputer is manufactured in China, with semiconductors manufactured in Taiwan. Greedy capitalists absolutely did that, you’re right - and gutted the US in the process.