5 ms·

I must be getting old and bitter but a career as a developer is not the first thing I would wish for my child. Perhaps something with a bit more fresh air?

by dep_b 5y ago

Rygian 5y ago
There is a sharp distinction between learning to code and committing to a career as a developer. Learning to code is a really useful skill in almost all employment opportunities where technology is involved.
oytis 5y ago
And even then, would learning to code early bring anything? IMO for schoolchildren it's better to focus on math, sciences and other things school has to offer. Coding by itself is but a vocational skill.
- Foobar8568 5y ago
  Native language and math are the two most important skills we should teach to primary school students, 10h of language, reading, speaking, understanding is the basis of everything else. For math, anywhere between 5 to 10h, and remaining hours for geography /history/society /"world discovery" (basic of science)
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    > language[: ]reading, speaking, understanding You forgot formulating - writing essays -: an absolute game changer, one of the most important exercises in primary schools (in some systems).
    - Foobar8568 5y ago
      Writing essay before middle school might be difficult, although dictation is a must too. In France/Switzerland, it's not expected to write long text before middle school, but what I can see, in recent times, be it in math, French or others, kids just need to "fill in the blanks" or worse, check-boxes. They don't practice writing at all.
      - mdp2021 5y ago
        In nearby systems, at 5, 6 or 7 the pupils are (were?) to write some short paragraphs, even disconnected, about a topic; from there on, pages of well connected thoughts. > be it in math, French or others, kids just need to "fill in the blanks" or worse, check-boxes This is absolutely criminal in many ways: they will not get scholarized with that. In math, we had to show that we can find a solution and show the steps; in language, you have to exercise sound thought; in notions, you have to show not just that you have them, but that you can use them. The problems with citizens wasting parts of their formative years will be socially massive. It's not about having the answers, it's about developing the skills... The answers /may/ reveal the skills.
- mdp2021 5y ago
  Coding is generally useful - useful for the coder -, not "just a job". (And «focus» does not mean neglecting the rest.)
  - oytis 5y ago
    I think it might provide some benefits to teach problem solving with code then. E.g. modelling some concepts from maths or physics in Python or something even simpler. Or demonstrating ideas with computer animation. Not sure how far we are with platforms that allow doing that without going too deep into how computers work.
    - Jtsummers 5y ago
      > I think it might provide some benefits to teach problem solving with code then. E.g. modelling some concepts from maths or physics in Python or something even simpler. That's what Logo offered starting back in the 60s. Exploring different problem domains with programs. Converting some kinds of math/geometry problems into computational problems with the turtle (and, later, turtle graphics on the screen). Language problems were similarly addressed, but most people just remember the graphical parts.
- JCharante 5y ago
  Programming helped me learn math. Implementing algorithms you learn about in class can be beneficial, and yes it's a vocational skill but allows you to do a lot of things for fun. Running a club? Want to help organize a 5k? Well now you're tech literate so you can run the websites. Although I think woodworking would be a nice skill to teach kids too.
mdp2021 5y ago
It seems you do not code in the open air, and you should change habits and perspective on that. And for you and member otys nearby: learning to code is learning a skill - you build your own tools -, which like all things, the earlier it is learnt the better.
- oytis 5y ago
  > the earlier it is learnt the better. I'm not really sure how much this applies to coding really. There are things like music or drawing or handwork or mathematics where you can refine your skills indefinitely, and starting early does indeed help get your 10000 hours sooner. But in programming it seems to me there is only that much you can learn - and people normally grow their careers by acquiring domain knowledge and/or business skills, not refining their coding.
  - teucris 5y ago
    We use “coding” and “programming” and “computer science” in these contexts and sell the domain short. Computational thinking and systems thinking are applicable to all aspects of life. The things taught in early coding activities are the building blocks of those domains.
    - djtango 5y ago
      You're right - IIRC building the pyramids required quite strong computational thinking for example. Or the whole shipping container complex. But coding is perhaps the purest manifestation of CS in all its glory where the feedback loop is tight and the scale of system can be borderline infinite for very little cost.
      - teucris 5y ago
        Exactly. So long as we do a good job making the connection to other domains, CS is an excellent learning tool for computational thinking and systems thinking.
  - 5y ago
schwartzworld 5y ago
Programming only feels like vocational training because not everybody can do it. There was a time where writing wasn't a ubiquitous skill either, you'd actually have to hire someone to write something down for you. Coding is a life skill, since most of us will need to use a computer for work in some capacity, what's the downside to teaching kids how to actually use it?
- oytis 5y ago
  > Coding is a life skill, since most of us will need to use a computer for work in some capacity There might have been good reasons to believe this 20 years ago, but today's computer users may not even know (and not need to know) where their files are located in a file system or whether they are on their local disk at all. I think we are at a point where you can use a computer without knowing pretty much anything besides what UI designers choose to present you.
analog31 5y ago
I code, and I'm not a developer. In fact, coding liberates me from dealing with software development. The programs I write typically only have to work once, for one user (me), and so are much easier to write than real software.

I must be getting old and bitter but a career as a developer is not the first thing I would wish for my child. Perhaps something with a bit more fresh air?

by dep_b 5y ago

I must be getting old and bitter but a career as a developer is not the first thing I would wish for my child. Perhaps something with a bit more fresh air?

Rygian 5y ago

There is a sharp distinction between learning to code and committing to a career as a developer. Learning to code is a really useful skill in almost all employment opportunities where technology is involved.

oytis 5y ago

And even then, would learning to code early bring anything? IMO for schoolchildren it's better to focus on math, sciences and other things school has to offer. Coding by itself is but a vocational skill.

Foobar8568 5y ago
Native language and math are the two most important skills we should teach to primary school students, 10h of language, reading, speaking, understanding is the basis of everything else. For math, anywhere between 5 to 10h, and remaining hours for geography /history/society /"world discovery" (basic of science)
- mdp2021 5y ago
  > language[: ]reading, speaking, understanding You forgot formulating - writing essays -: an absolute game changer, one of the most important exercises in primary schools (in some systems).
  - Foobar8568 5y ago
    Writing essay before middle school might be difficult, although dictation is a must too. In France/Switzerland, it's not expected to write long text before middle school, but what I can see, in recent times, be it in math, French or others, kids just need to "fill in the blanks" or worse, check-boxes. They don't practice writing at all.
    - mdp2021 5y ago
      In nearby systems, at 5, 6 or 7 the pupils are (were?) to write some short paragraphs, even disconnected, about a topic; from there on, pages of well connected thoughts. > be it in math, French or others, kids just need to "fill in the blanks" or worse, check-boxes This is absolutely criminal in many ways: they will not get scholarized with that. In math, we had to show that we can find a solution and show the steps; in language, you have to exercise sound thought; in notions, you have to show not just that you have them, but that you can use them. The problems with citizens wasting parts of their formative years will be socially massive. It's not about having the answers, it's about developing the skills... The answers /may/ reveal the skills.
mdp2021 5y ago
Coding is generally useful - useful for the coder -, not "just a job". (And «focus» does not mean neglecting the rest.)
- oytis 5y ago
  I think it might provide some benefits to teach problem solving with code then. E.g. modelling some concepts from maths or physics in Python or something even simpler. Or demonstrating ideas with computer animation. Not sure how far we are with platforms that allow doing that without going too deep into how computers work.
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    > I think it might provide some benefits to teach problem solving with code then. E.g. modelling some concepts from maths or physics in Python or something even simpler. That's what Logo offered starting back in the 60s. Exploring different problem domains with programs. Converting some kinds of math/geometry problems into computational problems with the turtle (and, later, turtle graphics on the screen). Language problems were similarly addressed, but most people just remember the graphical parts.
JCharante 5y ago
Programming helped me learn math. Implementing algorithms you learn about in class can be beneficial, and yes it's a vocational skill but allows you to do a lot of things for fun. Running a club? Want to help organize a 5k? Well now you're tech literate so you can run the websites. Although I think woodworking would be a nice skill to teach kids too.

mdp2021 5y ago

It seems you do not code in the open air, and you should change habits and perspective on that. And for you and member otys nearby: learning to code is learning a skill - you build your own tools -, which like all things, the earlier it is learnt the better.

oytis 5y ago
> the earlier it is learnt the better. I'm not really sure how much this applies to coding really. There are things like music or drawing or handwork or mathematics where you can refine your skills indefinitely, and starting early does indeed help get your 10000 hours sooner. But in programming it seems to me there is only that much you can learn - and people normally grow their careers by acquiring domain knowledge and/or business skills, not refining their coding.
- teucris 5y ago
  We use “coding” and “programming” and “computer science” in these contexts and sell the domain short. Computational thinking and systems thinking are applicable to all aspects of life. The things taught in early coding activities are the building blocks of those domains.
  - djtango 5y ago
    You're right - IIRC building the pyramids required quite strong computational thinking for example. Or the whole shipping container complex. But coding is perhaps the purest manifestation of CS in all its glory where the feedback loop is tight and the scale of system can be borderline infinite for very little cost.
    - teucris 5y ago
      Exactly. So long as we do a good job making the connection to other domains, CS is an excellent learning tool for computational thinking and systems thinking.
- 5y ago

schwartzworld 5y ago

Programming only feels like vocational training because not everybody can do it. There was a time where writing wasn't a ubiquitous skill either, you'd actually have to hire someone to write something down for you. Coding is a life skill, since most of us will need to use a computer for work in some capacity, what's the downside to teaching kids how to actually use it?

oytis 5y ago
> Coding is a life skill, since most of us will need to use a computer for work in some capacity There might have been good reasons to believe this 20 years ago, but today's computer users may not even know (and not need to know) where their files are located in a file system or whether they are on their local disk at all. I think we are at a point where you can use a computer without knowing pretty much anything besides what UI designers choose to present you.

analog31 5y ago

I code, and I'm not a developer. In fact, coding liberates me from dealing with software development. The programs I write typically only have to work once, for one user (me), and so are much easier to write than real software.