4 ms·

Walk, swim, cycle? Are we talking about pre-recorded neural commands, "modes" in implant? Or they actually managed to restore connectivity in nerves, bypassing

by mgreb 5y ago

Walk, swim, cycle? Are we talking about pre-recorded neural commands, "modes" in implant? Or they actually managed to restore connectivity in nerves, bypassing damaged part?

unnouinceput 5y ago
No. Quote from article: "Dr Courtine and Dr Bloch have developed a wafer-thin device with electrodes that could target the dormant nerves. Once implanted into Mr Roccati’s back, the device sent in pulses of electricity that mimicked those normally present in the nerves of an uninjured person as they walk. By doing this, the device acted like an amplifier for any electrical signals coming from Mr Roccati’s brain. Those brain signals would normally be blocked by his damaged spinal tissue and be incapable of activating the nerves in his lower back. But with the stimulation device in place, Mr Roccati was able to voluntarily control those once-dormant nerves, allowing him to move his legs and walk." It's his brain, the device is only used as amplifier. The fact that article talks about "Walk, swim, cycle" in its title is only a part of what people fitted with devices can do. It said he can also sit and talk to friends at bar.
- vba 5y ago
  Why is this post downvoted? Is it inaccurate.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    It's best not to speculate too much on voting. Who knows how many bots and trolls there are?
  - eps 5y ago
    Yes, it is inaccurate to the point of being the reverse. Muscles are controlled through the software, with pattern of activation uploaded from an iPad via Bluetooth and generally managed by am accompanying person. The patients absolutely do NOT control the muscles with their brain.
    - snovv_crash 5y ago
      So basically it's just a DAC + amplifier, not an ADC or with any kind of passthrough.
- clsec 5y ago
  The methods used in this study sound almost exactly like a TENS unit (1). As someone with a spinal cord injury that almost left me a quadriplegic, and who has serious neuropathy as a result, I have found that TENS units do very little to help me. I hope this can help people though, (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcutaneous_electrical_nerve_stimulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcutaneous_electrical_nerv...
- eps 5y ago
  It's NOT his brain. The article is 100% wrong. Read the Nature article linked at one of top comments. It is also mentioned in every interview the researchers gave recently. The muscles are controlled with the software only, the brain doesn't participate at all. "... the first implant specifically designed to control movement by mimicking the signals the lower body usually receives from the brain and upper spinal cord." https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00367-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00367-1
MayeulC 5y ago
Probably pre-recorded, according to the nature article: > Once the implant was in place, each person could control the pattern of electrical stimulation, using buttons and a tablet to raise or lower each leg, for example [...] using the device to guide their muscles through preprogrammed movements.
huhtenberg 5y ago
They hooked up trodes to the bottom section of the nerves, enabling patients to activate, selectively, respective muscles. Chain those activations together in sequence and you got a walk. It's described in the Nature article linked from another comment - https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00367-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00367-1 Also I heard authors give an interview on the radio and they mention that while walking is impressive, a more practical outcome is an ability to control muscles on the back, because these allow for bending and controlling the balance while sitting on a chair.
- cjmcqueen 5y ago
  As the partner of a complete paraplegic, sitting up and providing trunk control would be a huge benefit to newly injured patients. My partner had titanium rods but in their back 20+ years ago and the connections and bones are now wearing down. Allowing the muscles to provide trunk control would likely improve quality of life, increase mobility, and remove the challenges with arthritis from implants they put in spinal cord injury patients currently.
  - Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
    Reading in detail what it actually entails to be completely paraplegic is quite an eye-opening experience. I think a lot of people don't really see past the wheelchair, I certainly didn't for a long time. Some people try as an educational experience to live for a day in a wheelchair, but that's easy, spending a whole day sitting down is something desk workers do anyway. It's a completely different thing if you don't get to use any core muscles. I wanted to try that, but couldn't go even ten seconds without cheating. Even with all kinds of assistive technology it's extremely hard. Also the lack of bowel control must be a total nightmare. The whole "paraplegics can do anything, they're just like you and me" schtick that normal people are fed is a nice coping mechanism, but I think it may be holding back funding for research into real solutions.

by mgreb 5y ago

Walk, swim, cycle? Are we talking about pre-recorded neural commands, "modes" in implant? Or they actually managed to restore connectivity in nerves, bypassing damaged part?

unnouinceput 5y ago

No. Quote from article: "Dr Courtine and Dr Bloch have developed a wafer-thin device with electrodes that could target the dormant nerves. Once implanted into Mr Roccati’s back, the device sent in pulses of electricity that mimicked those normally present in the nerves of an uninjured person as they walk. By doing this, the device acted like an amplifier for any electrical signals coming from Mr Roccati’s brain. Those brain signals would normally be blocked by his damaged spinal tissue and be incapable of activating the nerves in his lower back. But with the stimulation device in place, Mr Roccati was able to voluntarily control those once-dormant nerves, allowing him to move his legs and walk." It's his brain, the device is only used as amplifier. The fact that article talks about "Walk, swim, cycle" in its title is only a part of what people fitted with devices can do. It said he can also sit and talk to friends at bar.

vba 5y ago
Why is this post downvoted? Is it inaccurate.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  It's best not to speculate too much on voting. Who knows how many bots and trolls there are?
- eps 5y ago
  Yes, it is inaccurate to the point of being the reverse. Muscles are controlled through the software, with pattern of activation uploaded from an iPad via Bluetooth and generally managed by am accompanying person. The patients absolutely do NOT control the muscles with their brain.
  - snovv_crash 5y ago
    So basically it's just a DAC + amplifier, not an ADC or with any kind of passthrough.
clsec 5y ago
The methods used in this study sound almost exactly like a TENS unit (1). As someone with a spinal cord injury that almost left me a quadriplegic, and who has serious neuropathy as a result, I have found that TENS units do very little to help me. I hope this can help people though, (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcutaneous_electrical_nerve_stimulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcutaneous_electrical_nerv...
eps 5y ago
It's NOT his brain. The article is 100% wrong. Read the Nature article linked at one of top comments. It is also mentioned in every interview the researchers gave recently. The muscles are controlled with the software only, the brain doesn't participate at all. "... the first implant specifically designed to control movement by mimicking the signals the lower body usually receives from the brain and upper spinal cord." https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00367-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00367-1

MayeulC 5y ago

Probably pre-recorded, according to the nature article: > Once the implant was in place, each person could control the pattern of electrical stimulation, using buttons and a tablet to raise or lower each leg, for example [...] using the device to guide their muscles through preprogrammed movements.

huhtenberg 5y ago

They hooked up trodes to the bottom section of the nerves, enabling patients to activate, selectively, respective muscles. Chain those activations together in sequence and you got a walk. It's described in the Nature article linked from another comment - https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00367-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00367-1 Also I heard authors give an interview on the radio and they mention that while walking is impressive, a more practical outcome is an ability to control muscles on the back, because these allow for bending and controlling the balance while sitting on a chair.

cjmcqueen 5y ago
As the partner of a complete paraplegic, sitting up and providing trunk control would be a huge benefit to newly injured patients. My partner had titanium rods but in their back 20+ years ago and the connections and bones are now wearing down. Allowing the muscles to provide trunk control would likely improve quality of life, increase mobility, and remove the challenges with arthritis from implants they put in spinal cord injury patients currently.
- Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
  Reading in detail what it actually entails to be completely paraplegic is quite an eye-opening experience. I think a lot of people don't really see past the wheelchair, I certainly didn't for a long time. Some people try as an educational experience to live for a day in a wheelchair, but that's easy, spending a whole day sitting down is something desk workers do anyway. It's a completely different thing if you don't get to use any core muscles. I wanted to try that, but couldn't go even ten seconds without cheating. Even with all kinds of assistive technology it's extremely hard. Also the lack of bowel control must be a total nightmare. The whole "paraplegics can do anything, they're just like you and me" schtick that normal people are fed is a nice coping mechanism, but I think it may be holding back funding for research into real solutions.