7 ms·

I'm not biting the whole "thrive on what you like" SV mentra. The money is good, I dug my hole, and I'm fine. Just like with 2008, the problem wasn't CDO dogshi

by jlcoff 5y ago

I'm not biting the whole "thrive on what you like" SV mentra. The money is good, I dug my hole, and I'm fine. Just like with 2008, the problem wasn't CDO dogshit, but people with subprime credit rating buying large house with variable mortgage rate.

cormacrelf 5y ago
(1) You having money and being fine means you have the power to leave. (2) You cannot explain away 2008 as being the fault of the people who couldn't pay their mortgage. WTAF dude. What I'm getting from this is that you have wrapped yourself up in a nice blanket of ignorance and a nice comfy salary, and while you have come to the conclusion that the business you're engaging in is fraudulent, you've convinced yourself that anybody but you is responsible. Participating makes you responsible. If you don't have the scruples to leave something like that and have no financial pressure to stay, then you don't deserve any work in tech when the dust settles. I for one would never hire you.
- jlcoff 5y ago
  > you have come to the conclusion that the business you're engaging in is fraudulent [...] then you don't deserve any work in tech I do believe the whole tech industry is nothing but a giant scam, selling snake oil at a premium. You are as much the problem as I am. We very much live in a world where you are either the sheep or the wolf, and I ain't gonna be a sheep. I won't back down to bullies of your kind. > I for one would never hire you. At least, I don't pretend I'm gonna save the world from itself.
  - wtf_throwaway 5y ago
    I'm with you brother. If you start to question the morality of who pays your salary, you will soon find that there are very little companies that you would allow yourself to work for. I can think of renewable energies, and not much else. In truth, I already work for an evil company. All companies I worked for in my long career were morally bankrupt one way or another. I never had any trouble sleeping at night. If it's not illegal it's fine.
    - cormacrelf 5y ago
      > you will soon find that there are very little companies that you would allow yourself to work for. That’s literally the idea. People doing bad things should find hiring minions difficult.
      - jlcoff 5y ago
        "bad things" is a subjective concept. A former roommate was building a website in the mid 2000 for a dildo company. You probably don't care, but a religious zealot might consider it "bad". We're gonna make a deal, I'll let you work in ad-tech, and you let me build tool which allow people to shoot themselves in the foot.
        cormacrelf 5y ago
        I work in academia. I will never work in ad-tech either.
        jlcoff 5y ago
        Academia is even more of a scam than tech...
        deanCommie 5y ago
        Taking a fully relativist perspective on morality is just an excuse to justify taking no ethical stance on anything at all. It's certainly your choice to exist in society this way, but you can't be surprised if people correctly criticize it as selfish, self-serving, and morally bankrupt. At least embrace it.
      - lowkey 5y ago
        But how far are you as an individual willing to go? - Apple uses exploitative labor practices to manufacture iPhones [0] - Google is increasingly being recognized as a surveillance and manipulation platform. They have even been caught manipulating elections [1] [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/29/lens-technology-apple-uighur/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/29/lens-te... [1] https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/download/epstein-testimony https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/download/epstein-testimony
- jlcoff 5y ago
  > (2) You cannot explain away 2008 as being the fault of the people who couldn't pay their mortgage. WTAF dude. When you are subprime rated, you would have to be a complete moron to take a variable loan on you life. But sure, poor them, it's not their fault, it's the mean evil banker who gave them a tool to shoot themselves with ... That the difference between you and me. I'm gonna give people the freedom to shoot themselves. You, well, you know better how each and every of them shall live there lives. Remind me of ESR writing... http://www.catb.org/~esr/guns/gun-ethics.html http://www.catb.org/~esr/guns/gun-ethics.html Do you even realize your own mentality ?
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > it's the mean evil banker who gave them a tool to shoot themselves with Well, since that tool was largely fraud from which the bankers expected to profit (and did, in the short-term, until they got taken down by the rest of the industry doing the same thing) by externalizing risk, yeah, it is.
    - gazzer1 5y ago
      I don't recall anyone getting prosecuted for fraud even though the democrats would have dearly loved to have done so. The bankers packaged mortgages and made a profit just like they always did. The difference was, local banks were pressured to loan to people with dreadful credit, and the guarantees by FNMA and the optimistic ratings by S&P made it easier to package and sell the mortgage backed securities. In the end, the homeowners got to default on their mortgages but the bankers lost their livelihood. You're putting the blame in the wrong place. I'd start by looking at FNMA. Don't take my word - read up on it.
  - piva00 5y ago
    > When you are subprime rated, you would have to be a complete moron to take a variable loan on you life. And loads of people were that moronic, do they really deserve to have suffered because some other people wanted to profit as much as possible from their stupidity? It's not like these morons had the tools to really assess what the fuck they were doing. Not excluding the fact that many of these loans were basically predatory, using the naivety/stupidity of these people against themselves to cash in. Does all the world deserve to suffer through a major economic crisis because some morons are totally free to be predated upon by forces much more educated and sophisticated about the financial markets (and by extension doing that knowingly, pretty fucking evil)? Libertarian ideology doesn't really hold much to reality, full freedom to do whatever is only achievable when the population is educated enough, humanity is not there yet. What the actual fuck...

by jlcoff 5y ago

cormacrelf 5y ago

(1) You having money and being fine means you have the power to leave. (2) You cannot explain away 2008 as being the fault of the people who couldn't pay their mortgage. WTAF dude. What I'm getting from this is that you have wrapped yourself up in a nice blanket of ignorance and a nice comfy salary, and while you have come to the conclusion that the business you're engaging in is fraudulent, you've convinced yourself that anybody but you is responsible. Participating makes you responsible. If you don't have the scruples to leave something like that and have no financial pressure to stay, then you don't deserve any work in tech when the dust settles. I for one would never hire you.

jlcoff 5y ago
> you have come to the conclusion that the business you're engaging in is fraudulent [...] then you don't deserve any work in tech I do believe the whole tech industry is nothing but a giant scam, selling snake oil at a premium. You are as much the problem as I am. We very much live in a world where you are either the sheep or the wolf, and I ain't gonna be a sheep. I won't back down to bullies of your kind. > I for one would never hire you. At least, I don't pretend I'm gonna save the world from itself.
- wtf_throwaway 5y ago
  I'm with you brother. If you start to question the morality of who pays your salary, you will soon find that there are very little companies that you would allow yourself to work for. I can think of renewable energies, and not much else. In truth, I already work for an evil company. All companies I worked for in my long career were morally bankrupt one way or another. I never had any trouble sleeping at night. If it's not illegal it's fine.
  - cormacrelf 5y ago
    > you will soon find that there are very little companies that you would allow yourself to work for. That’s literally the idea. People doing bad things should find hiring minions difficult.
    - jlcoff 5y ago
      "bad things" is a subjective concept. A former roommate was building a website in the mid 2000 for a dildo company. You probably don't care, but a religious zealot might consider it "bad". We're gonna make a deal, I'll let you work in ad-tech, and you let me build tool which allow people to shoot themselves in the foot.
      - cormacrelf 5y ago
        I work in academia. I will never work in ad-tech either.
        jlcoff 5y ago
        Academia is even more of a scam than tech...
      - deanCommie 5y ago
        Taking a fully relativist perspective on morality is just an excuse to justify taking no ethical stance on anything at all. It's certainly your choice to exist in society this way, but you can't be surprised if people correctly criticize it as selfish, self-serving, and morally bankrupt. At least embrace it.
    - lowkey 5y ago
      But how far are you as an individual willing to go? - Apple uses exploitative labor practices to manufacture iPhones [0] - Google is increasingly being recognized as a surveillance and manipulation platform. They have even been caught manipulating elections [1] [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/29/lens-technology-apple-uighur/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/29/lens-te... [1] https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/download/epstein-testimony https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/download/epstein-testimony
jlcoff 5y ago
> (2) You cannot explain away 2008 as being the fault of the people who couldn't pay their mortgage. WTAF dude. When you are subprime rated, you would have to be a complete moron to take a variable loan on you life. But sure, poor them, it's not their fault, it's the mean evil banker who gave them a tool to shoot themselves with ... That the difference between you and me. I'm gonna give people the freedom to shoot themselves. You, well, you know better how each and every of them shall live there lives. Remind me of ESR writing... http://www.catb.org/~esr/guns/gun-ethics.html http://www.catb.org/~esr/guns/gun-ethics.html Do you even realize your own mentality ?
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > it's the mean evil banker who gave them a tool to shoot themselves with Well, since that tool was largely fraud from which the bankers expected to profit (and did, in the short-term, until they got taken down by the rest of the industry doing the same thing) by externalizing risk, yeah, it is.
  - gazzer1 5y ago
    I don't recall anyone getting prosecuted for fraud even though the democrats would have dearly loved to have done so. The bankers packaged mortgages and made a profit just like they always did. The difference was, local banks were pressured to loan to people with dreadful credit, and the guarantees by FNMA and the optimistic ratings by S&P made it easier to package and sell the mortgage backed securities. In the end, the homeowners got to default on their mortgages but the bankers lost their livelihood. You're putting the blame in the wrong place. I'd start by looking at FNMA. Don't take my word - read up on it.
- piva00 5y ago
  > When you are subprime rated, you would have to be a complete moron to take a variable loan on you life. And loads of people were that moronic, do they really deserve to have suffered because some other people wanted to profit as much as possible from their stupidity? It's not like these morons had the tools to really assess what the fuck they were doing. Not excluding the fact that many of these loans were basically predatory, using the naivety/stupidity of these people against themselves to cash in. Does all the world deserve to suffer through a major economic crisis because some morons are totally free to be predated upon by forces much more educated and sophisticated about the financial markets (and by extension doing that knowingly, pretty fucking evil)? Libertarian ideology doesn't really hold much to reality, full freedom to do whatever is only achievable when the population is educated enough, humanity is not there yet. What the actual fuck...