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I'm sympathetic to that, but in the end don't trust people to make decisions that are in everyone's best interest. Americans especially have proven again and ag

I'm sympathetic to that, but in the end don't trust people to make decisions that are in everyone's best interest. Americans especially have proven again and again that they are too blinded by the false ideals of rugged individualism to see what's right. What's unethical is allowing tens of thousands of people to die every year because some people have a (understandably)misguided view of right and wrong.

lolinder 5y ago
Can you clarify how those of us calling for the government to prevent Tesla from involuntarily enlisting drivers into their beta test are "blinded by the false ideals of rugged individualism"? Just so we're talking about the same term: > The belief that all individuals, or nearly all individuals, can succeed on their own and that government help for people should be minimal. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rugged-individualism https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rugged-individualism Typically, the rugged individualists are the ones who say that the government should stay out of all this and people can take care of themselves. Basically the opposite of what I'm saying.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  Sometimes sacrifices need to be made so that we can all prosper. The American mythos is unfortunately allergic to this truism. The idea that society needs permission to better itself is misguided. Same reason America is lagging in vaccination rate even though we are the society with most access. I'd be extremely happy if people could come to the correct conclusion themselves. I don't want to allow their failure to harm the rest of us.
  - lolinder 5y ago
    What you're arguing against, then, isn't "rugged individualism", it's "the sanctity of human life". The difference is that the one says "individual human freedom is paramount" while the other says "each individual human life is paramount". Neither ethic would approve of systematically killing people for the greater good, but they're two very different ethics in most other respects. For example, I could arrive at "vaccination should be mandated" from a sanctity-of-life perspective, but I never could from a rugged individualism perspective.
    - colinmhayes 5y ago
      Not quite. My thesis is "The idea that society needs permission to better itself is misguided." It's not limited to human life at all. It's about rejecting your thesis of "Tesla's self-driving beta is unethical because most of the participants in this "experiment" did not opt in." We don't need permission to save lives.
      - lolinder 5y ago
        And your calculus isn't altered at all by the fact that Tesla isn't "society", it's a single for-profit corporation?
        colinmhayes 5y ago
        Of course, but that doesn't change the fact that the software would help everyone, even if Tesla profited.

lolinder 5y ago

Can you clarify how those of us calling for the government to prevent Tesla from involuntarily enlisting drivers into their beta test are "blinded by the false ideals of rugged individualism"? Just so we're talking about the same term: > The belief that all individuals, or nearly all individuals, can succeed on their own and that government help for people should be minimal. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rugged-individualism https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rugged-individualism Typically, the rugged individualists are the ones who say that the government should stay out of all this and people can take care of themselves. Basically the opposite of what I'm saying.

colinmhayes 5y ago
Sometimes sacrifices need to be made so that we can all prosper. The American mythos is unfortunately allergic to this truism. The idea that society needs permission to better itself is misguided. Same reason America is lagging in vaccination rate even though we are the society with most access. I'd be extremely happy if people could come to the correct conclusion themselves. I don't want to allow their failure to harm the rest of us.
- lolinder 5y ago
  What you're arguing against, then, isn't "rugged individualism", it's "the sanctity of human life". The difference is that the one says "individual human freedom is paramount" while the other says "each individual human life is paramount". Neither ethic would approve of systematically killing people for the greater good, but they're two very different ethics in most other respects. For example, I could arrive at "vaccination should be mandated" from a sanctity-of-life perspective, but I never could from a rugged individualism perspective.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    Not quite. My thesis is "The idea that society needs permission to better itself is misguided." It's not limited to human life at all. It's about rejecting your thesis of "Tesla's self-driving beta is unethical because most of the participants in this "experiment" did not opt in." We don't need permission to save lives.
    - lolinder 5y ago
      And your calculus isn't altered at all by the fact that Tesla isn't "society", it's a single for-profit corporation?
      - colinmhayes 5y ago
        Of course, but that doesn't change the fact that the software would help everyone, even if Tesla profited.