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Yes, I agree, but... When that tribe has externalities to their behavior that harm members of my tribe, is when it gets rough. (I want you to stop putting mer

Yes, I agree, but... When that tribe has externalities to their behavior that harm members of my tribe, is when it gets rough. (I want you to stop putting mercury in my drinking water, endangering my drinking water with your oil pipeline, I want you to wear a mask to reduce my chance of infection, etc etc etc.)

beardedetim 5y ago
100% agree. There is conflict between tribes and that something that I am not clear on how to fix as nothing other than violence seems to help ensure _my_ tribe doesn't get killed off. In my perfect world, it is Mutually Assured Destruction between tribes that keeps us not putting mercury in any drinking water outside our own, etc. I know that isn't going to work but that is the most _fair_ to me.
- VikingCoder 5y ago
  "Fair" to me is, we vote on representatives who enact regulations based on scientific evidence interpreted by experts. That's my hot take.
- tobyjsullivan 5y ago
  My experience is new problems which look a lot like old problems are fairly common. And, in most cases, the solution to the new problem often ends up looking a lot like the solution to the old problem. Our current best-worst solution to tribalism has been a small number of sovereign nations with large populations and democratically elected governments. Everyone admits the emergent qualities are suboptimal but they are still better than all the other options we've tried so far, as the saying goes. The solution to online tribalism is likely to look very similar. Considering that the externalities of these internet-based tribes cross over into the physical world (such as the drinking water/oil pipeline examples above), I suspect this leads to a likely future where internet tribal communities end up overlapping with traditional national boundaries (eg, China's great firewall). To be clear, this isn't the future I want but it's starting to seem like the most likely outcome. I admit my past optimism for a truly "open" internet is being tested these days. I don't want a closed internet anymore than I used to - but it might simply be the only practical option if society wants to continue functioning.
mrjangles 5y ago
Reading this, what is very striking is how very different the two tribes are on a fundamental level. One tribe has a list of things they are demanding the other tribe do. The other tribe just wants to be left alone.
- thomastjeffery 5y ago
  No tribe wants to be left alone. Sure, one tribe wants to live free of societal consequences, but they still want to participate in society. Else every serious libertarian would actually go live alone and grow their own food. That doesn't happen. In reality, they go buy groceries alongside everyone else.
  - mrjangles 5y ago
    I've never seen a libertarian go to the grocer and demand that he be given food for free.
    - thomastjeffery 5y ago
      I never said for free. They pay with money like everyone else. The consequences I was referring to are things like spreading COVID-19 because they are careless about it, etc.

beardedetim 5y ago

100% agree. There is conflict between tribes and that something that I am not clear on how to fix as nothing other than violence seems to help ensure _my_ tribe doesn't get killed off. In my perfect world, it is Mutually Assured Destruction between tribes that keeps us not putting mercury in any drinking water outside our own, etc. I know that isn't going to work but that is the most _fair_ to me.

VikingCoder 5y ago
"Fair" to me is, we vote on representatives who enact regulations based on scientific evidence interpreted by experts. That's my hot take.
tobyjsullivan 5y ago
My experience is new problems which look a lot like old problems are fairly common. And, in most cases, the solution to the new problem often ends up looking a lot like the solution to the old problem. Our current best-worst solution to tribalism has been a small number of sovereign nations with large populations and democratically elected governments. Everyone admits the emergent qualities are suboptimal but they are still better than all the other options we've tried so far, as the saying goes. The solution to online tribalism is likely to look very similar. Considering that the externalities of these internet-based tribes cross over into the physical world (such as the drinking water/oil pipeline examples above), I suspect this leads to a likely future where internet tribal communities end up overlapping with traditional national boundaries (eg, China's great firewall). To be clear, this isn't the future I want but it's starting to seem like the most likely outcome. I admit my past optimism for a truly "open" internet is being tested these days. I don't want a closed internet anymore than I used to - but it might simply be the only practical option if society wants to continue functioning.

mrjangles 5y ago

Reading this, what is very striking is how very different the two tribes are on a fundamental level. One tribe has a list of things they are demanding the other tribe do. The other tribe just wants to be left alone.

thomastjeffery 5y ago
No tribe wants to be left alone. Sure, one tribe wants to live free of societal consequences, but they still want to participate in society. Else every serious libertarian would actually go live alone and grow their own food. That doesn't happen. In reality, they go buy groceries alongside everyone else.
- mrjangles 5y ago
  I've never seen a libertarian go to the grocer and demand that he be given food for free.
  - thomastjeffery 5y ago
    I never said for free. They pay with money like everyone else. The consequences I was referring to are things like spreading COVID-19 because they are careless about it, etc.