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Obvious no-true-scotsman. Believing that the goal of crypto is to circumvent laws regarding possession and theft is at most a fringe belief. The fact that this

Obvious no-true-scotsman. Believing that the goal of crypto is to circumvent laws regarding possession and theft is at most a fringe belief. The fact that this is at the top of HN demonstrates how devoid of merit crypto discussion here is.

deleted 5y ago
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SantalBlush 5y ago
Circumventing property law has absolutely been a selling point of crypto, front and center, since its inception. The real no-true-Scotsman is saying, "Those who want an extra-governmental system of property aren't the real crypto fans." Yes, they are. In reality, crypto's true purpose is a moving target, so it can never be criticized because that's not what crypto is really about.
- repomies69 5y ago
  > In reality, crypto's true purpose is a moving target, so it can never be criticized because that's not what crypto is really about. Bitcoin is a tool. Like hammer or a shotgun. You can use it whatever way you want. There is no centrally defined "purpose".
  - pavlov 5y ago
    This is the Adolf Eichmann defense. Trains are just tools, and he was making them run on time. Any infrastructure has a purpose. It’s fair to ask why Bitcoin exists and whose project it is.
    - lowkey 5y ago
      And it's official, Godwin's Law [0] has reached crypto. The purpose of Bitcoin is of course to support the Nazi cause. What other purpose could it possibly have? /s Hint: Millions of people use Bitcoin as a: - store of value to protect purchasing power over time - inflation hedge to protect savings from the ravages of inflation - a hedge to protect against corrupt governments manipulating currency - protection from negative real interest rates - censorship-resistant payments - anonymous payments with instant finality (Lightning) Money is a tool like any other. Cash, gold, NFTs, Bitcoin, and credit cards can be used for good or evil, lawful or unlawful purposes. The technology isn't inherently moral or immoral. It is just a tool. The "it's really for nazis" argument is particularly weak. The critics must be getting desperate. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
      - pavlov 5y ago
        This is the first time you hear "Bitcoin is for nazis"? You're lucky, I guess. It's a pretty common accusation because many Bitcoin advocates are also far-right and/or extreme libertarian. Anyway, I'm not saying that. Eichmann is simply a reductio ad absurdum example of the problems with the "it's just a tool / technology has no moral" position.
- cft 5y ago
  Crypto is also a white supremacy tool: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2022/02/05/the-charm-of-cryptocurrencies-for-white-supremacists https://www.economist.com/united-states/2022/02/05/the-charm...
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Lots of tools that are useful for marginalized groups are also useful for marginalized groups that want to spread hate. Same goes for the internet. It was hard in the beginning on internet mainstream (late 90s/early 00s) to find any community that didn't have a bunch of racists and fascists in it as well.
  - fleddr 5y ago
    Yeah, that's why Bitcoin grows fastest in Africa.
  - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
    The flipside viewpoint is that cryptocurrency bypasses censorability by large corporates; cryptocurrency embodies the freedoms that appear to be espoused so loudly and delightedy by "the US"^. Guns = good Cryptocurrency = bad Opinions I agree with = good Opinions I disagree with = bad Me getting mine = good Someone else getting theirs = bad Censorship is the battleground issue for the 2020's. ^Apologies for the lumping of 300 million people into a single sentence description, it's for the sake of trying to make a point of the entanglement of "the US" and "freedom" - which isn't a bad thing.
- johnsonlambo 5y ago
  I know too many people who aim to become millionaires off of btc and then move to countries without cap gains tax. I feel their sentiments are held by a large constituent.
Miner49er 5y ago
It's where bitcoin gets most of its actual utility though. It doesn't have much use otherwise.
Waterluvian 5y ago
There isn’t a worthy discussion left to be had about crypto that isn’t discussing its role in fraud.
- capableweb 5y ago
  That's such a sad view, especially to hold in a generally curious place like HN. Another example is narcotics, yes we know that most narcotics usage is bad, but does that mean all usage of narcotics is bad? Obviously not, and we take those articles as they come, and discuss the angles each article has independently, in most cases at least. But somehow cryptocurrencies are so emotional for most people, that they hold such a black/white view of it. We can, and should discuss subjects without "tainting" them with general, over-discussed points when we can, especially if we want to keep HN curious and not turn into a echo-chamber.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - xwolfi 5y ago
    Narcotic may be whatever you want, but the debate has to be honest and transparent, not shady and criminal: if you want to legalize heroin, make a case to the people, get it approved with safeguards, say like Portugal or France to some extent (Methadone), and make sure it won't profit people who also do other things with the proceeds of sales. The problem with Narcotic is simple: people lose freedom when getting into addiction, then with hard narcotics they also lose the ability to make important life choices, minors and generally disfavored people are targeted by addictive substance sales people, production is rarely done well (because most fields should be used for food, if they are used for more profitable narcotic purpose legally or due to lax enforcement, ALL FIELDS become opium fields like in Afghanistan, which can cause food safety issues etc. You can't just talk as if narcotic consumers are innocent party goers. Many are absolute victims and we must talk about it without crypto entering the debate. Crypto is just a weak way to try to hide the source of completely illegal funding for narcotics without going through the painful discussion with the population that we may have to sacrifice a lot of victims for the sake of spending less on narcotic enforcement.
tootie 5y ago
Not OP but I think the true Scotsman isn't that laws don't apply, it's that the ledger is infallible and authoritative.
- vageli 5y ago
  Is the ledger wrong in this case? Does the entity holding the key have access to the coins?
floodyberry- 5y ago
Keeping the government from "seizing" assets is a big crypto goal, and avoiding taxes is included in that for a subset of users (which is "theft" if you agree with them). What to do with actual theft is kind of swept under the rug until it actually happens to a cryptobro, at which point they are very much in favor of a central authority getting their bitcoins or ugly monkey jpegs back.
fxtentacle 5y ago
All crypto uses that I hear about regularly seem to contradict that: 1. Chinese people using Bitcoin to move money outside of China, thereby bypassing government regulations. 2. People building private marketplaces (even if it isn't drugs), thereby avoiding paying taxes. 3. People doing blackmail and extortion directly and using crypto to try to avoid having the money tracked back to them. 4. People stealing electricity and then laundering that stolen energy by converting it into crypto which is then sold for money. Really, name me any big crypto-based operation that actually pays sales taxes in all regions in which they operate.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

SantalBlush 5y ago

Circumventing property law has absolutely been a selling point of crypto, front and center, since its inception. The real no-true-Scotsman is saying, "Those who want an extra-governmental system of property aren't the real crypto fans." Yes, they are. In reality, crypto's true purpose is a moving target, so it can never be criticized because that's not what crypto is really about.

repomies69 5y ago
> In reality, crypto's true purpose is a moving target, so it can never be criticized because that's not what crypto is really about. Bitcoin is a tool. Like hammer or a shotgun. You can use it whatever way you want. There is no centrally defined "purpose".
- pavlov 5y ago
  This is the Adolf Eichmann defense. Trains are just tools, and he was making them run on time. Any infrastructure has a purpose. It’s fair to ask why Bitcoin exists and whose project it is.
  - lowkey 5y ago
    And it's official, Godwin's Law [0] has reached crypto. The purpose of Bitcoin is of course to support the Nazi cause. What other purpose could it possibly have? /s Hint: Millions of people use Bitcoin as a: - store of value to protect purchasing power over time - inflation hedge to protect savings from the ravages of inflation - a hedge to protect against corrupt governments manipulating currency - protection from negative real interest rates - censorship-resistant payments - anonymous payments with instant finality (Lightning) Money is a tool like any other. Cash, gold, NFTs, Bitcoin, and credit cards can be used for good or evil, lawful or unlawful purposes. The technology isn't inherently moral or immoral. It is just a tool. The "it's really for nazis" argument is particularly weak. The critics must be getting desperate. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
    - pavlov 5y ago
      This is the first time you hear "Bitcoin is for nazis"? You're lucky, I guess. It's a pretty common accusation because many Bitcoin advocates are also far-right and/or extreme libertarian. Anyway, I'm not saying that. Eichmann is simply a reductio ad absurdum example of the problems with the "it's just a tool / technology has no moral" position.
cft 5y ago
Crypto is also a white supremacy tool: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2022/02/05/the-charm-of-cryptocurrencies-for-white-supremacists https://www.economist.com/united-states/2022/02/05/the-charm...
- capableweb 5y ago
  Lots of tools that are useful for marginalized groups are also useful for marginalized groups that want to spread hate. Same goes for the internet. It was hard in the beginning on internet mainstream (late 90s/early 00s) to find any community that didn't have a bunch of racists and fascists in it as well.
- fleddr 5y ago
  Yeah, that's why Bitcoin grows fastest in Africa.
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  The flipside viewpoint is that cryptocurrency bypasses censorability by large corporates; cryptocurrency embodies the freedoms that appear to be espoused so loudly and delightedy by "the US"^. Guns = good Cryptocurrency = bad Opinions I agree with = good Opinions I disagree with = bad Me getting mine = good Someone else getting theirs = bad Censorship is the battleground issue for the 2020's. ^Apologies for the lumping of 300 million people into a single sentence description, it's for the sake of trying to make a point of the entanglement of "the US" and "freedom" - which isn't a bad thing.
johnsonlambo 5y ago
I know too many people who aim to become millionaires off of btc and then move to countries without cap gains tax. I feel their sentiments are held by a large constituent.

Miner49er 5y ago

It's where bitcoin gets most of its actual utility though. It doesn't have much use otherwise.

Waterluvian 5y ago

There isn’t a worthy discussion left to be had about crypto that isn’t discussing its role in fraud.

capableweb 5y ago
That's such a sad view, especially to hold in a generally curious place like HN. Another example is narcotics, yes we know that most narcotics usage is bad, but does that mean all usage of narcotics is bad? Obviously not, and we take those articles as they come, and discuss the angles each article has independently, in most cases at least. But somehow cryptocurrencies are so emotional for most people, that they hold such a black/white view of it. We can, and should discuss subjects without "tainting" them with general, over-discussed points when we can, especially if we want to keep HN curious and not turn into a echo-chamber.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- xwolfi 5y ago
  Narcotic may be whatever you want, but the debate has to be honest and transparent, not shady and criminal: if you want to legalize heroin, make a case to the people, get it approved with safeguards, say like Portugal or France to some extent (Methadone), and make sure it won't profit people who also do other things with the proceeds of sales. The problem with Narcotic is simple: people lose freedom when getting into addiction, then with hard narcotics they also lose the ability to make important life choices, minors and generally disfavored people are targeted by addictive substance sales people, production is rarely done well (because most fields should be used for food, if they are used for more profitable narcotic purpose legally or due to lax enforcement, ALL FIELDS become opium fields like in Afghanistan, which can cause food safety issues etc. You can't just talk as if narcotic consumers are innocent party goers. Many are absolute victims and we must talk about it without crypto entering the debate. Crypto is just a weak way to try to hide the source of completely illegal funding for narcotics without going through the painful discussion with the population that we may have to sacrifice a lot of victims for the sake of spending less on narcotic enforcement.

tootie 5y ago

Not OP but I think the true Scotsman isn't that laws don't apply, it's that the ledger is infallible and authoritative.

vageli 5y ago
Is the ledger wrong in this case? Does the entity holding the key have access to the coins?

floodyberry- 5y ago

Keeping the government from "seizing" assets is a big crypto goal, and avoiding taxes is included in that for a subset of users (which is "theft" if you agree with them). What to do with actual theft is kind of swept under the rug until it actually happens to a cryptobro, at which point they are very much in favor of a central authority getting their bitcoins or ugly monkey jpegs back.

fxtentacle 5y ago

All crypto uses that I hear about regularly seem to contradict that: 1. Chinese people using Bitcoin to move money outside of China, thereby bypassing government regulations. 2. People building private marketplaces (even if it isn't drugs), thereby avoiding paying taxes. 3. People doing blackmail and extortion directly and using crypto to try to avoid having the money tracked back to them. 4. People stealing electricity and then laundering that stolen energy by converting it into crypto which is then sold for money. Really, name me any big crypto-based operation that actually pays sales taxes in all regions in which they operate.