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If we instead are born and tube fed from a machine and allowed to just think non-stop of amazing things. is that a better version of life? It's not that suffer

If we instead are born and tube fed from a machine and allowed to just think non-stop of amazing things. is that a better version of life? It's not that suffering is noble, it's that suffering is the default and we don't know why. And in the meantime the suffering causes growth. At least we hope.

the_af 5y ago
A lot of suffering doesn't cause any growth whatsoever, especially the kind of suffering that ends in painful, horrifying death. Challenges may cause growth, and I don't think anybody really wishes for an unchallenging, boring, uneventful life. But suffering? No, thanks.
- fellowniusmonk 5y ago
  Disease often stunts growth and mental development, being orphaned at a young age (like myself and my sister were) was an irredeemable loss that made everything about my life harder and worse. I've seen countless individuals raise friends and family rounds for ideas I was working on and as a result of my lack of connections or proximity to wealth the growth of my bootstrapped company was slower and worse without capital investment. Better is better, worse is worse, romanticizing suffering is a form of stockholm syndrome often times, where people just can't come to terms with the fact that their lives are demonstrably worse for the malnourishment they've experienced. These people arguing that suffering creates growth must have very benign views of suffering or have experienced suffering very limited in scope. I think many have only experienced personal challenges and conflate it with loss and suffering. Human psychology seems to think everything is a trade off, it's not true, some things are pure win and pure loss. Suffering creates a personal internal response, often times a stoic or any psychologically positive response is beneficial to the individual because of its motivating effect (similar to how optimists tend to outperform pessimists), but let's not fool ourselves, the man with severe brain/body damage may do better with an optimistic perspective than pessimistic but they'll never code or procreate again and their local maxima is objectively worse.
  - the_af 5y ago
    Oh, fully agreed! As an example see one of the replies to me from someone who seems to be arguing that > "[...] the modern notion that life is supposed to be in a certain way is a big factor. There's a narrative that we' supposed to get married in our twenties, have kids, retire after a long career (a journey ending in management), then die of a heart attack at 72." is somehow related or at least partially to blame for all human suffering. While there is of course a lot to think and argue about modern life, the "rat race", the notion of "my career is my life" or equating academic/job achievement to happiness -- all of this merits debate and discussion, of course! -- the idea that this in any way, shape or form is in the same category of young children dying from horrible diseases, or the Holocaust (or any kind of genocide), or having a debilitating and permanent condition, or being tortured, is infuriating and frankly insulting. I've no patience for people who would argue this.
tasha0663 5y ago
> born and tube fed from a machine and allowed to just think non-stop Sorry, are you trying to describe even worse suffering than the poverty the preceding comment described?

the_af 5y ago

A lot of suffering doesn't cause any growth whatsoever, especially the kind of suffering that ends in painful, horrifying death. Challenges may cause growth, and I don't think anybody really wishes for an unchallenging, boring, uneventful life. But suffering? No, thanks.

fellowniusmonk 5y ago
Disease often stunts growth and mental development, being orphaned at a young age (like myself and my sister were) was an irredeemable loss that made everything about my life harder and worse. I've seen countless individuals raise friends and family rounds for ideas I was working on and as a result of my lack of connections or proximity to wealth the growth of my bootstrapped company was slower and worse without capital investment. Better is better, worse is worse, romanticizing suffering is a form of stockholm syndrome often times, where people just can't come to terms with the fact that their lives are demonstrably worse for the malnourishment they've experienced. These people arguing that suffering creates growth must have very benign views of suffering or have experienced suffering very limited in scope. I think many have only experienced personal challenges and conflate it with loss and suffering. Human psychology seems to think everything is a trade off, it's not true, some things are pure win and pure loss. Suffering creates a personal internal response, often times a stoic or any psychologically positive response is beneficial to the individual because of its motivating effect (similar to how optimists tend to outperform pessimists), but let's not fool ourselves, the man with severe brain/body damage may do better with an optimistic perspective than pessimistic but they'll never code or procreate again and their local maxima is objectively worse.
- the_af 5y ago
  Oh, fully agreed! As an example see one of the replies to me from someone who seems to be arguing that > "[...] the modern notion that life is supposed to be in a certain way is a big factor. There's a narrative that we' supposed to get married in our twenties, have kids, retire after a long career (a journey ending in management), then die of a heart attack at 72." is somehow related or at least partially to blame for all human suffering. While there is of course a lot to think and argue about modern life, the "rat race", the notion of "my career is my life" or equating academic/job achievement to happiness -- all of this merits debate and discussion, of course! -- the idea that this in any way, shape or form is in the same category of young children dying from horrible diseases, or the Holocaust (or any kind of genocide), or having a debilitating and permanent condition, or being tortured, is infuriating and frankly insulting. I've no patience for people who would argue this.

tasha0663 5y ago

> born and tube fed from a machine and allowed to just think non-stop Sorry, are you trying to describe even worse suffering than the poverty the preceding comment described?