7 ms·

Hacker News is such a bizarre place. On the one hand, we have threads about how browsers are fingerprintable and some app is using telemetry and endless discus

by throwaway22032 5y ago

Hacker News is such a bizarre place. On the one hand, we have threads about how browsers are fingerprintable and some app is using telemetry and endless discussions on theoretical zero-knowledge protocols and the importance of cryptography and Snowden saying this and that that get voted up to the top. On the other hand, something like this comes up which is basically another step along the "no-one accepts cash" funnel and so now everything you ever buy with metadata is part of the borg. Like, you've literally deliberately introduced an MiTM. I don't get this blind spot. Paying with cash is literally the easiest thing I do to reduce my data trail.

AlexanderTheGr8 5y ago
How long before some stores don't accept cash? How long before banks do a background check (taking weeks) before giving you cash?
- wmeredith 5y ago
  > How long before some stores don't accept cash? This already happens. My closest NFL and MLB stadiums do not accept cash for anything inside the park.
- djhn 5y ago
  Already happens. My local bike shop stopped accepting cash.
- dharmab 5y ago
  Cashless businesses were appearing in NYC pre-pandemic until the city passed a law against them to preserve access for unbanked consumers. This law was criticized as it greatly increased the cost of starting a small business. Then the pandemic happened and cash usage declined further. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/nyregion/nyc-cashless-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/nyregion/nyc-cashless-ban... - Note the date
- pomian 5y ago
  Most Airlines quit accepting cash for on board purchases. "For our convenience"
lkschubert8 5y ago
The obvious answer is that the responders are two distinct subsets of hn users.
izzydata 5y ago
I don't think it is a reflection of peoples opinions on things. If it is tech news then someone will post it.
Blindnoplan 5y ago
Most people dont care enough, even on here I would assume, to be bothered by their data being out there and honestly same for me. Cash is annoying to handle a lot less sanitary than just holding your phone next to the merchants.
runeks 5y ago
It's almost as if the people who upvote stuff differ in opinion on what is valuable and/or interesting
dharmab 5y ago
It's as if there are many different people who use the internet. I personally like using a credit card because it creates a data trail I can use to review my spending and budgets.
- jdgoesmarching 5y ago
  I must have missed when we all voted on only using cash. It’s like security bro veganism.
  - timeon 5y ago
    Speaking about 'bro' culture - seems like there is always opportunity to bash veganism.
websap 5y ago
Carrying cash comes with inherent risks.
- Hakashiro 5y ago
  And Apple Pay is much harder to trace (except for Apple and your bank I guess?) than just using a plastic static card. I can't count the amount of times I've lost or been robbed physical bills. Never once have money siphoned out of my online bank. I don't use cash anymore, I'm all digital, and still use a VPN to watch porn. Turns out different people have different threat models. My threat model includes my neighbour, my ISP (to a certain extent), my employer (again, to a certain extent), private companies like Google or Facebook, burglars, thieves, and scammers. It doesn't include the NSA, the government, the NSO group, banks, or North Korean government-sponsored hackers. If you think you can defend yourself against the NSA, lol. Good luck.
  - manquer 5y ago
    Threat model should include banks , credit scores and spending patterns of credit cards is the foundation of credit worthiness in this country . For example, your credit score is penalized if your have high utilization on your card doesn’t matter if you never default on a payment, Low credit score results in low limits in turn keeps utilization high. Bank knowing I defaulted on a card as a risk parameter is one thing, them knowing how much I spend every month and likely on what line items is not ideal when they can control a lot of your life. Bad credit score can mean high interest rates , higher down payments rejected for loans that can have major impact on your life. It is also likely bank or payment processors can indirectly sell our buying patterns for targeting ads.
    - snotrockets 5y ago
      Those are highly regulated, regarding which data they can or can not use, and that regulation is (surprisingly?) very consumer friendly. There's more of a risk of a CRA getting hacked and their collected data being sold
TameAntelope 5y ago
I don't want to reduce my data trail, as I don't believe there are meaningful risks associated with creating one.
user3939382 5y ago
There's apparently a lack of consensus which isn't surprising since I'm conflicted personally by these issues all the time: the tech itself is really cool, the practical effects and side effects often are not.
wyager 5y ago
Payment digitization is inevitable. The benefits outweighs the costs for 95% of people. The realistic options are payment through dystopian surveillance apparatus payment processors, or payment through bitcoin lightning (or similar).
- ska 5y ago
  It's hard to imagine a plausible path to payment digitization without states asserting a) currency controls and b) some degree of visibility on transactions. I think on the latter they'll take a "well if anyone can see it, we should be able to " and "KYC is needed" etc. stance. The only way to avoid anyone seeing it will defeat (a) an not be acceptable to them. This would relegate to same status as any other black market, with better/broader tech.
MikeKusold 5y ago
Paying with your phone is actually more secure than the old mag-swipe method. Your phone will tokenize your credit card information, which makes it significantly harder to track credit card usage across various merchants. Of course it isn't as private as cash, but it is a step forward from mag-swipe. Square has a good explainer if you want to read more: https://squareup.com/us/en/townsquare/what-does-tokenization-actually-mean https://squareup.com/us/en/townsquare/what-does-tokenization...
- stavros 5y ago
  Harder for whom? The attack vector here isn't "hackers compromised everyone and can correlate your data", it's "Visa knows everything about you". I agree with the GP, this is a huge privacy blind spot.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ska 5y ago
    > The attack vector here isn't There are multiple attack vectors. One of them is "why did I just get another charge from that place we visited last June". Another being "oops, we plugged our pin into a skimmer", etc. Agree that letting Visa/MC/whomever know everything about your transactions is a choice... Otoh if they pay you 3ish % for it, you might decide you're more than happy to.
    - stavros 5y ago
      I have half a mind to make a debit card that lets you whitelist merchants. You use the same card everywhere, but unless the merchant is in the whitelist, the charge fails. Also, you can set limits and rules. Basically like privacy.com, but why use a new card per merchant?
  - bagacrap 5y ago
    hackers need not apply. I'm sure retailers will happily sell your transaction data to a third party aggregator, and that transaction data is more fine grained than what Visa gets to know about you (spending at Walmart vs specifically buying diapers). So now Apple gets to know what Visa knows. Still, for the time being, they don't seem to know individual items. And many here seem to think Apple is more trustworthy than random anonymous data broker.
mritzmann 5y ago
I love the fact that both are represented on HN and yet there is - in most cases - a great disscussion culture.
ska 5y ago
> Paying with cash is literally the easiest thing I do to reduce my data trail. Sure, if you prioritize anonymity in your transactions over convenience cash is much better. OTOH, contactless pay with your phone is so much better than handing your card to a random server to make an imprint or whatever - and more secure/privacy maintaining than using the card itself if done right. It's not a binary decision.
mcbutterbunz 5y ago
The truly bizarre/interesting part of all of this is how we assume users of a website to be of the same opinion on most topics.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dang 5y ago
Most of these paradoxes come from treating the community as if it were a person, which it isn't. It's a statistical cloud of millions of people (and hundreds of thousands of commenters) with a complete spectrum of views. People can contradict themselves, but a statistical cloud can't.

AlexanderTheGr8 5y ago

How long before some stores don't accept cash? How long before banks do a background check (taking weeks) before giving you cash?

wmeredith 5y ago
> How long before some stores don't accept cash? This already happens. My closest NFL and MLB stadiums do not accept cash for anything inside the park.
djhn 5y ago
Already happens. My local bike shop stopped accepting cash.
dharmab 5y ago
Cashless businesses were appearing in NYC pre-pandemic until the city passed a law against them to preserve access for unbanked consumers. This law was criticized as it greatly increased the cost of starting a small business. Then the pandemic happened and cash usage declined further. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/nyregion/nyc-cashless-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/nyregion/nyc-cashless-ban... - Note the date
pomian 5y ago
Most Airlines quit accepting cash for on board purchases. "For our convenience"

lkschubert8 5y ago

The obvious answer is that the responders are two distinct subsets of hn users.

izzydata 5y ago

I don't think it is a reflection of peoples opinions on things. If it is tech news then someone will post it.

Blindnoplan 5y ago

Most people dont care enough, even on here I would assume, to be bothered by their data being out there and honestly same for me. Cash is annoying to handle a lot less sanitary than just holding your phone next to the merchants.

runeks 5y ago

It's almost as if the people who upvote stuff differ in opinion on what is valuable and/or interesting

dharmab 5y ago

It's as if there are many different people who use the internet. I personally like using a credit card because it creates a data trail I can use to review my spending and budgets.

jdgoesmarching 5y ago
I must have missed when we all voted on only using cash. It’s like security bro veganism.
- timeon 5y ago
  Speaking about 'bro' culture - seems like there is always opportunity to bash veganism.

websap 5y ago

Carrying cash comes with inherent risks.

Hakashiro 5y ago
And Apple Pay is much harder to trace (except for Apple and your bank I guess?) than just using a plastic static card. I can't count the amount of times I've lost or been robbed physical bills. Never once have money siphoned out of my online bank. I don't use cash anymore, I'm all digital, and still use a VPN to watch porn. Turns out different people have different threat models. My threat model includes my neighbour, my ISP (to a certain extent), my employer (again, to a certain extent), private companies like Google or Facebook, burglars, thieves, and scammers. It doesn't include the NSA, the government, the NSO group, banks, or North Korean government-sponsored hackers. If you think you can defend yourself against the NSA, lol. Good luck.
- manquer 5y ago
  Threat model should include banks , credit scores and spending patterns of credit cards is the foundation of credit worthiness in this country . For example, your credit score is penalized if your have high utilization on your card doesn’t matter if you never default on a payment, Low credit score results in low limits in turn keeps utilization high. Bank knowing I defaulted on a card as a risk parameter is one thing, them knowing how much I spend every month and likely on what line items is not ideal when they can control a lot of your life. Bad credit score can mean high interest rates , higher down payments rejected for loans that can have major impact on your life. It is also likely bank or payment processors can indirectly sell our buying patterns for targeting ads.
  - snotrockets 5y ago
    Those are highly regulated, regarding which data they can or can not use, and that regulation is (surprisingly?) very consumer friendly. There's more of a risk of a CRA getting hacked and their collected data being sold

TameAntelope 5y ago

I don't want to reduce my data trail, as I don't believe there are meaningful risks associated with creating one.

user3939382 5y ago

There's apparently a lack of consensus which isn't surprising since I'm conflicted personally by these issues all the time: the tech itself is really cool, the practical effects and side effects often are not.

wyager 5y ago

Payment digitization is inevitable. The benefits outweighs the costs for 95% of people. The realistic options are payment through dystopian surveillance apparatus payment processors, or payment through bitcoin lightning (or similar).

ska 5y ago
It's hard to imagine a plausible path to payment digitization without states asserting a) currency controls and b) some degree of visibility on transactions. I think on the latter they'll take a "well if anyone can see it, we should be able to " and "KYC is needed" etc. stance. The only way to avoid anyone seeing it will defeat (a) an not be acceptable to them. This would relegate to same status as any other black market, with better/broader tech.

MikeKusold 5y ago

Paying with your phone is actually more secure than the old mag-swipe method. Your phone will tokenize your credit card information, which makes it significantly harder to track credit card usage across various merchants. Of course it isn't as private as cash, but it is a step forward from mag-swipe. Square has a good explainer if you want to read more: https://squareup.com/us/en/townsquare/what-does-tokenization-actually-mean https://squareup.com/us/en/townsquare/what-does-tokenization...

stavros 5y ago
Harder for whom? The attack vector here isn't "hackers compromised everyone and can correlate your data", it's "Visa knows everything about you". I agree with the GP, this is a huge privacy blind spot.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ska 5y ago
  > The attack vector here isn't There are multiple attack vectors. One of them is "why did I just get another charge from that place we visited last June". Another being "oops, we plugged our pin into a skimmer", etc. Agree that letting Visa/MC/whomever know everything about your transactions is a choice... Otoh if they pay you 3ish % for it, you might decide you're more than happy to.
  - stavros 5y ago
    I have half a mind to make a debit card that lets you whitelist merchants. You use the same card everywhere, but unless the merchant is in the whitelist, the charge fails. Also, you can set limits and rules. Basically like privacy.com, but why use a new card per merchant?
- bagacrap 5y ago
  hackers need not apply. I'm sure retailers will happily sell your transaction data to a third party aggregator, and that transaction data is more fine grained than what Visa gets to know about you (spending at Walmart vs specifically buying diapers). So now Apple gets to know what Visa knows. Still, for the time being, they don't seem to know individual items. And many here seem to think Apple is more trustworthy than random anonymous data broker.

mritzmann 5y ago

I love the fact that both are represented on HN and yet there is - in most cases - a great disscussion culture.

ska 5y ago

> Paying with cash is literally the easiest thing I do to reduce my data trail. Sure, if you prioritize anonymity in your transactions over convenience cash is much better. OTOH, contactless pay with your phone is so much better than handing your card to a random server to make an imprint or whatever - and more secure/privacy maintaining than using the card itself if done right. It's not a binary decision.

mcbutterbunz 5y ago

The truly bizarre/interesting part of all of this is how we assume users of a website to be of the same opinion on most topics.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dang 5y ago

Most of these paradoxes come from treating the community as if it were a person, which it isn't. It's a statistical cloud of millions of people (and hundreds of thousands of commenters) with a complete spectrum of views. People can contradict themselves, but a statistical cloud can't.