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I have had a hard time figuring out how to phrase this, but I think the problem is that everyone wants to be smart, and sometimes that subconsciously gets turne

I have had a hard time figuring out how to phrase this, but I think the problem is that everyone wants to be smart, and sometimes that subconsciously gets turned into "smart people are better," but what we really want other people to be is aligned with us. How capable they are is just the length of the vector, which could even point in the opposite direction making intelligence detrimental.

upwardbound 5y ago
Agreed. You might be interested in reading about AI alignment which is this concept applied to non-human intelligence, and like you said the same principle holds among people too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_alignment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_alignment
- allemagne 5y ago
  Then is the goal of "preventing bad AI outcomes" at any level just a bit absurd? Or at least as absurd as "eliminating alignment issues among humans", or maybe even "bug-free code" if you apply the principle towards relatively simple programs?
  - upwardbound 5y ago
    It is equally challenging as both of those examples, but it's very very important so it's worth working on despite the intractability. In terms of alignment among humans, most (but not all) human governments agree on certain principles, which are encoded in international law and negotiated within the United Nations. E.g., most (not all) people agree that torture and slavery are unacceptable. Thus, it is possible and important to get AGI to abide by these high-level human values. E.g. if an AGI system is put in charge of maximizing the GDP of a nation, it should do so in accordance with generally recognized principles of human rights and human dignity. There's certainly a lack of agreement among nations but at least we mostly agree on some things and getting AI to agree with us on the things we agree on is important. If you like podcasts, here's a great podcast episode which explores a philosopher's perspective on how to make moral decisions (e.g. should abortion be legal) in a situation of moral uncertainty: https://futureoflife.org/2018/09/17/moral-uncertainty-and-the-path-to-ai-alignment-with-william-macaskill/ https://futureoflife.org/2018/09/17/moral-uncertainty-and-th...
AlwaysRock 5y ago
I don't think everyone wants to be smart. I don't give a shit about feeling smart or being smart if I get paid well and I'm happy. I think many folks in eng are used to being told they were smart either in high school or college or an early job and it became part of their self image. They might be smart but they are tossed into a field of people who come from similar backgrounds and now they are average which just doesnt fit with their self image.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  Nothing you value can be obtained without your brain, although you might use words other than "smart" to describe the abilities involved.
  - nextaccountic 5y ago
    Being hardworking is also an ability of the brain, but distinct from being smart.
NikolaNovak 5y ago
"Smart" also can have a lot of different meanings/outlets/vectors. First 10 years of my career, I felt bearded Unix Sysadmins were the smartest people I knew :->, whereas I was fully Dilbertian in view of The Evil Pointy Haired Management. I've been trying to develop "PeopleSmarts" or "Soft Skills" or "Emotional Intelligence" or whatever we call it last 5+ years, and it's... just as much harder and more challenging than technical skillset, as my mentors always told me and I never believed. It's a far fuzzier, squishier, less certain set of problems, and there just isn't O'Reilly-quality literature out there :P. I have confidence that given time I can learn technical concepts or figure out technical issues. I think path in front of me to be soft-skill-savvy, emotionally intelligent, is going to be long and hard. So, how to properly setup LUNs on AIX or optimize a SQL statement or design an ERP architecture is one kind of smart; how to work with your own team to figure out productive way forward is another kind of smart; how to work with client and business and management stakeholders to satisfy their actual needs is another important kind of smart.

upwardbound 5y ago

Agreed. You might be interested in reading about AI alignment which is this concept applied to non-human intelligence, and like you said the same principle holds among people too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_alignment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_alignment

allemagne 5y ago
Then is the goal of "preventing bad AI outcomes" at any level just a bit absurd? Or at least as absurd as "eliminating alignment issues among humans", or maybe even "bug-free code" if you apply the principle towards relatively simple programs?
- upwardbound 5y ago
  It is equally challenging as both of those examples, but it's very very important so it's worth working on despite the intractability. In terms of alignment among humans, most (but not all) human governments agree on certain principles, which are encoded in international law and negotiated within the United Nations. E.g., most (not all) people agree that torture and slavery are unacceptable. Thus, it is possible and important to get AGI to abide by these high-level human values. E.g. if an AGI system is put in charge of maximizing the GDP of a nation, it should do so in accordance with generally recognized principles of human rights and human dignity. There's certainly a lack of agreement among nations but at least we mostly agree on some things and getting AI to agree with us on the things we agree on is important. If you like podcasts, here's a great podcast episode which explores a philosopher's perspective on how to make moral decisions (e.g. should abortion be legal) in a situation of moral uncertainty: https://futureoflife.org/2018/09/17/moral-uncertainty-and-the-path-to-ai-alignment-with-william-macaskill/ https://futureoflife.org/2018/09/17/moral-uncertainty-and-th...

AlwaysRock 5y ago

I don't think everyone wants to be smart. I don't give a shit about feeling smart or being smart if I get paid well and I'm happy. I think many folks in eng are used to being told they were smart either in high school or college or an early job and it became part of their self image. They might be smart but they are tossed into a field of people who come from similar backgrounds and now they are average which just doesnt fit with their self image.

whatshisface 5y ago
Nothing you value can be obtained without your brain, although you might use words other than "smart" to describe the abilities involved.
- nextaccountic 5y ago
  Being hardworking is also an ability of the brain, but distinct from being smart.

NikolaNovak 5y ago

"Smart" also can have a lot of different meanings/outlets/vectors. First 10 years of my career, I felt bearded Unix Sysadmins were the smartest people I knew :->, whereas I was fully Dilbertian in view of The Evil Pointy Haired Management. I've been trying to develop "PeopleSmarts" or "Soft Skills" or "Emotional Intelligence" or whatever we call it last 5+ years, and it's... just as much harder and more challenging than technical skillset, as my mentors always told me and I never believed. It's a far fuzzier, squishier, less certain set of problems, and there just isn't O'Reilly-quality literature out there :P. I have confidence that given time I can learn technical concepts or figure out technical issues. I think path in front of me to be soft-skill-savvy, emotionally intelligent, is going to be long and hard. So, how to properly setup LUNs on AIX or optimize a SQL statement or design an ERP architecture is one kind of smart; how to work with your own team to figure out productive way forward is another kind of smart; how to work with client and business and management stakeholders to satisfy their actual needs is another important kind of smart.