6 ms·

Something I didn't get from the articles is can Windows 8 work on non UEFI systems? What if I buy a machine today and wanted (probably won't but hypothetical he

by nkassis 15y ago

Something I didn't get from the articles is can Windows 8 work on non UEFI systems? What if I buy a machine today and wanted (probably won't but hypothetical here) to run Windows 8 on it is that still possible? Because then pirated copies will just use that to get around the requirement. Also, if this pans out, I hope the EU and potentially the US antitrust authorities look into it.

jzb 15y ago
Yes. They do plan backwards support - as annoying as the Secure Boot thing is, I can't imagine the outcry if MSFT said "our new OS only runs on brand new machines."
Strom 15y ago
I have the Windows 8 developer preview running on an old laptop with no UEFI. Also Microsoft has said again and again that every computer that can run Windows 7 will be able to run Windows 8.
runjake 15y ago
1.) It's not about piracy, it's about attack surface. 2.) What are the antitrust issues? They're doing this to help preserve the security and integrity, very similar to what Apple does with iOS devices, and almost every single Android vendor does with its devices. Edit: The downvoters have spoken. But why is Microsoft being singled out when every other platform does, or is looking to do the same exact thing? Android, iOS, and soon likely Mac OS X.
- narag 15y ago
  1. The predictable outcome has not to be the same as the stated goals. 2. The antitrust issue is that every OEM that wants to distribute Windows could be forced to ship computers that prevents other systems to work. This could be seen as Microsoft abusing his dominant position to block competitors.
  - runjake 15y ago
    So does the same line of reasoning in #2 apply to Apple iOS and Android devices? Why aren't people in an uproar about that? (I take that back, they are in an uproar in the Android world). If you've hung out at a WWDC in the past couple years, it's apparent Apple is looking into the same such security scheme(s) for Mac OS X. OEMs ship these computers as Windows computers. OEMs generally don't support alternative OSes on their hardware, because there hasn't been enough demand to make it worthwhile. Linux on the desktop isn't even on Microsoft's radar. That war was lost by Linux (although ironically, they may win or at least fair very well in the "post-pc" era). I'm still confused as to why Linux diehards don't just create their own (ARM-based?) desktop platform where nothing is locked down or closed source.
    - rbanffy 15y ago
      > the same line of reasoning in #2 apply to Apple iOS and Android devices? They are not PCs and are not sold under the expectation they are able to run something other than what was built in. What Microsoft is trying to do is to force OEMs into creating Windows-only PCs.
      - runjake 15y ago
        There's no expectation that PCs will run anything other than Windows for the vast, vast majority of consumers, either.
    - AlexandrB 15y ago
      > So does the same line of reasoning in #2 apply to Apple iOS and Android devices? Why aren't people in an uproar about that? (I take that back, they are in an uproar in the Android world). This line of reasoning doesn't apply to iOS/Android because there is more than one major player. On the other hand it's basically impossible to go into a retail chain and walk out with a PC that runs something other than Microsoft Windows (unless you're buying a Mac, but they are still only a small portion of the consumer PC market).
- bad_user 15y ago
  I think it's a worrying trend, ever since Apple's iOS. It's a pity that so many developers that are accustomed to use open-source tools will choose shinny over liberty to tinker, because after all -- it's the third-party developers that make or break a platform. Basically Trusted Computing is sneaking in, because Apple-stuff is the developer-equivalent for the dancing kitty that begs clicking. IMHO, people saying that trusted computing is a good thing are in fact idiots that haven't thought this through; since crackers will always crack, virus writers will always find back doors, and the only ones getting hurt will be legitimate customers (exactly as DRM). And in case you think iOS is secure, you probably haven't seen JailbreakMe in action. At least with Windows XP you are aware that it isn't secure.
- rbanffy 15y ago
  > Microsoft being singled out when every other platform does Because PCs have been general-purpose machines up to now and Microsoft is trying to turn them into Windows machines. You still can install Linux on a Mac and I don't think the future will bring a OSX-only Mac.
  - runjake 15y ago
    And you'll still be able to install Linux on a UEFI PC. So what's the difference here? The Secure Boot feature is a UEFI feature, not a Microsoft-specific feature.
narag 15y ago
If I understood it right, the requirements are for OEM, that is hardware manufacturers that bundle Windows for a reduced license price. So it will apply to branded computers. You can still make a computer from parts, but it's a problem for laptops. Also it may set the stage for further restrictions in Windows 9.
- kokey 15y ago
  To me this resembles how network locked mobile phones work in some ways. In the end we will end up with unlocked hacks, or legit ways to unlock an OEM machine either after some time has passed or to allow certain non-MS products.
ghurlman 15y ago
This is all for Windows Logo certification... you'll be able to build your own PC like always.

by nkassis 15y ago

jzb 15y ago

Yes. They do plan backwards support - as annoying as the Secure Boot thing is, I can't imagine the outcry if MSFT said "our new OS only runs on brand new machines."

Strom 15y ago

I have the Windows 8 developer preview running on an old laptop with no UEFI. Also Microsoft has said again and again that every computer that can run Windows 7 will be able to run Windows 8.

runjake 15y ago

1.) It's not about piracy, it's about attack surface. 2.) What are the antitrust issues? They're doing this to help preserve the security and integrity, very similar to what Apple does with iOS devices, and almost every single Android vendor does with its devices. Edit: The downvoters have spoken. But why is Microsoft being singled out when every other platform does, or is looking to do the same exact thing? Android, iOS, and soon likely Mac OS X.

narag 15y ago
1. The predictable outcome has not to be the same as the stated goals. 2. The antitrust issue is that every OEM that wants to distribute Windows could be forced to ship computers that prevents other systems to work. This could be seen as Microsoft abusing his dominant position to block competitors.
- runjake 15y ago
  So does the same line of reasoning in #2 apply to Apple iOS and Android devices? Why aren't people in an uproar about that? (I take that back, they are in an uproar in the Android world). If you've hung out at a WWDC in the past couple years, it's apparent Apple is looking into the same such security scheme(s) for Mac OS X. OEMs ship these computers as Windows computers. OEMs generally don't support alternative OSes on their hardware, because there hasn't been enough demand to make it worthwhile. Linux on the desktop isn't even on Microsoft's radar. That war was lost by Linux (although ironically, they may win or at least fair very well in the "post-pc" era). I'm still confused as to why Linux diehards don't just create their own (ARM-based?) desktop platform where nothing is locked down or closed source.
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    > the same line of reasoning in #2 apply to Apple iOS and Android devices? They are not PCs and are not sold under the expectation they are able to run something other than what was built in. What Microsoft is trying to do is to force OEMs into creating Windows-only PCs.
    - runjake 15y ago
      There's no expectation that PCs will run anything other than Windows for the vast, vast majority of consumers, either.
  - AlexandrB 15y ago
    > So does the same line of reasoning in #2 apply to Apple iOS and Android devices? Why aren't people in an uproar about that? (I take that back, they are in an uproar in the Android world). This line of reasoning doesn't apply to iOS/Android because there is more than one major player. On the other hand it's basically impossible to go into a retail chain and walk out with a PC that runs something other than Microsoft Windows (unless you're buying a Mac, but they are still only a small portion of the consumer PC market).
bad_user 15y ago
I think it's a worrying trend, ever since Apple's iOS. It's a pity that so many developers that are accustomed to use open-source tools will choose shinny over liberty to tinker, because after all -- it's the third-party developers that make or break a platform. Basically Trusted Computing is sneaking in, because Apple-stuff is the developer-equivalent for the dancing kitty that begs clicking. IMHO, people saying that trusted computing is a good thing are in fact idiots that haven't thought this through; since crackers will always crack, virus writers will always find back doors, and the only ones getting hurt will be legitimate customers (exactly as DRM). And in case you think iOS is secure, you probably haven't seen JailbreakMe in action. At least with Windows XP you are aware that it isn't secure.
rbanffy 15y ago
> Microsoft being singled out when every other platform does Because PCs have been general-purpose machines up to now and Microsoft is trying to turn them into Windows machines. You still can install Linux on a Mac and I don't think the future will bring a OSX-only Mac.
- runjake 15y ago
  And you'll still be able to install Linux on a UEFI PC. So what's the difference here? The Secure Boot feature is a UEFI feature, not a Microsoft-specific feature.

narag 15y ago

If I understood it right, the requirements are for OEM, that is hardware manufacturers that bundle Windows for a reduced license price. So it will apply to branded computers. You can still make a computer from parts, but it's a problem for laptops. Also it may set the stage for further restrictions in Windows 9.

kokey 15y ago
To me this resembles how network locked mobile phones work in some ways. In the end we will end up with unlocked hacks, or legit ways to unlock an OEM machine either after some time has passed or to allow certain non-MS products.

ghurlman 15y ago

This is all for Windows Logo certification... you'll be able to build your own PC like always.