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Always use their new name. Consider if you were talking about someone who recently got married - would you refer to them as "Miss XYZ" when talking about a mont

Always use their new name. Consider if you were talking about someone who recently got married - would you refer to them as "Miss XYZ" when talking about a month ago but when talking in the present use their current name "Mrs. ABC"? Same thing.

yucky 5y ago
- effingwewt 5y ago
  Well done. People insisting on black and white w/o nuance never seem to think things through too far. It reminds me of a few years ago when some would cry to be the first to scream they dont see color.
- carapace 5y ago
  > Did Bruce Jenner win gold medals, or did Caitlyn Jenner win them? Same person, different name, mu. The menu is not the meal, the map is not the territory, the name is not the person. > are we deadnaming when referring to actual events that took place while Bruce Jenner was competing in the Olympics? You just deadnamed Caitlyn Jenner in that question. Compare with "are we deadnaming when referring to actual events that took place while Caitlyn Jenner was competing in the Olympics under the name Bruce?" In any event the answer is yes, if you're calling Caitlyn Bruce, but no if you're describing events that happened in the past. I.e. Elliot Page will be starring in the upcoming season three of Umbrella Academy, I'm eager to see how the show will handle his character now that he's no longer Ellen Page.
  - yucky 5y ago
    >You just deadnamed Caitlyn Jenner in that question. No I didn't, I cited the actual record books. Besides, can't we conclude that Caitlyn Jenner would never have been able to win a gold medal in a male Olympic sport since no woman has ever done that, or even qualified for a male Olympic sport for that matter. I don't see how acknowledging reality is problematic. I would argue the opposite.
    - carapace 5y ago
      > No I didn't, Sure you did. You called her Bruce instead of Caitlyn, that's "deadnaming". > I cited the actual record books. Old records have old data in them. I don't think you get shamed for referring to old records' data, I think that's going a little too far, but that's also different than calling a person a "dead" name in the present. > can't we conclude that Caitlyn Jenner... I don't really know anything about Caitlyn Jenner or sports for that matter, and couldn't care less about athletic awards. I think they're pretty silly actually, but that's me. I don't go around calling people silly for thinking that jumping really high or throwing a ball really well are so cool, so in practice my views on the matter aren't a problem. > I don't see how acknowledging reality is problematic. I would argue the opposite. The problem with that is that people have different views on "reality".
      - yucky 5y ago
        >Sure you did. You called her Bruce instead of Caitlyn, that's "deadnaming". No I didn't. I said Bruce Jenner won Olympic gold medals. That is a fact. We know that Caitlyn Jenner never won gold medals because no woman has ever won Olympic gold in men's events. In fact no woman has ever qualified to even compete in men's events in the Olympics. That is a fact that nobody disputes. Since that is a fact, how can Caitlyn Jenner have possibly won those gold medals?
        carapace 5y ago
        Really the question of whether that particular sentence "The record books are clear[1], so then are we deadnaming when referring to actual events that took place while Bruce Jenner was competing in the Olympics?" is or is not "deadnaming" turns on the tense or temporal sense of the name "Bruce". > We know that Caitlyn Jenner never won gold medals... No, that's wrong. We know she did win medals when she was still a man going by the name Bruce. Changing gender didn't unwin those medals, eh? Likewise "no woman has ever won Olympic gold in men's events." is true, but she wasn't a woman when she won the medals. > how can Caitlyn Jenner have possibly won those gold medals? A man named Bruce won some medals and then became a woman named Caitlyn. It really seems like you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Is this a problem you have run into in real life? "Caitlyn" and "Bruce" aren't two different humans beings, both names refer to the same person just at different times in their life. Just as a child grows into an adult and then into a old person, there is a change, but we don't consider these to be different entities, eh?
- anaisbetts 5y ago
  I'm telling you how to talk about trans people in your life, people who are your friends or coworkers. If you want to insist on being Rude, that's your right but you're doing it intentionally at this point, and you should expect that people won't appreciate it. And yes you are absolutely correct, Caitlyn Jenner won some Olympic medals.
  - yucky 5y ago
    - anaisbetts 5y ago
      I am telling you, as a trans person, the way that trans people would like to be treated in conversation. You are certainly Free to be incredibly pedantic and Weird about it, and upset the people around you. Casual conversation is not a group exercise in mathematical proofs.
      - yucky 5y ago
        anaisbetts 5y ago
        Confirmed unrelated.
        yucky 5y ago
naasking 5y ago
> Always use their new name. Consider if you were talking about someone who recently got married So if I'm reading the text of a plaque awarded prior to a transition (or text from a history book describing a person prior to transition, etc.), you're saying that I should not read it verbatim but that I should be substituting in their new name on the fly? Also, I don't see how it's the same thing as changing your name after getting married. Deadnaming has social consequences like getting you banned from Twitter, using a maiden name will not.
- anaisbetts 5y ago
  I mean yes, if you want to not be rude, that'd be nice! It's not a Law, just like repeatedly shouting in a movie theater and making cell phone calls isn't a Law, but people sure aren't gonna like it when you do it.
  - naasking 5y ago
    Thanks for explaining your view on the issue. I think it's unnecessarily confusing in some corner cases, but etiquette is rarely perfectly coherent or well defined in all cases. We muddle through all the same as long as we're all being charitable.

yucky 5y ago

effingwewt 5y ago
Well done. People insisting on black and white w/o nuance never seem to think things through too far. It reminds me of a few years ago when some would cry to be the first to scream they dont see color.
carapace 5y ago
> Did Bruce Jenner win gold medals, or did Caitlyn Jenner win them? Same person, different name, mu. The menu is not the meal, the map is not the territory, the name is not the person. > are we deadnaming when referring to actual events that took place while Bruce Jenner was competing in the Olympics? You just deadnamed Caitlyn Jenner in that question. Compare with "are we deadnaming when referring to actual events that took place while Caitlyn Jenner was competing in the Olympics under the name Bruce?" In any event the answer is yes, if you're calling Caitlyn Bruce, but no if you're describing events that happened in the past. I.e. Elliot Page will be starring in the upcoming season three of Umbrella Academy, I'm eager to see how the show will handle his character now that he's no longer Ellen Page.
- yucky 5y ago
  >You just deadnamed Caitlyn Jenner in that question. No I didn't, I cited the actual record books. Besides, can't we conclude that Caitlyn Jenner would never have been able to win a gold medal in a male Olympic sport since no woman has ever done that, or even qualified for a male Olympic sport for that matter. I don't see how acknowledging reality is problematic. I would argue the opposite.
  - carapace 5y ago
    > No I didn't, Sure you did. You called her Bruce instead of Caitlyn, that's "deadnaming". > I cited the actual record books. Old records have old data in them. I don't think you get shamed for referring to old records' data, I think that's going a little too far, but that's also different than calling a person a "dead" name in the present. > can't we conclude that Caitlyn Jenner... I don't really know anything about Caitlyn Jenner or sports for that matter, and couldn't care less about athletic awards. I think they're pretty silly actually, but that's me. I don't go around calling people silly for thinking that jumping really high or throwing a ball really well are so cool, so in practice my views on the matter aren't a problem. > I don't see how acknowledging reality is problematic. I would argue the opposite. The problem with that is that people have different views on "reality".
    - yucky 5y ago
      >Sure you did. You called her Bruce instead of Caitlyn, that's "deadnaming". No I didn't. I said Bruce Jenner won Olympic gold medals. That is a fact. We know that Caitlyn Jenner never won gold medals because no woman has ever won Olympic gold in men's events. In fact no woman has ever qualified to even compete in men's events in the Olympics. That is a fact that nobody disputes. Since that is a fact, how can Caitlyn Jenner have possibly won those gold medals?
      - carapace 5y ago
        Really the question of whether that particular sentence "The record books are clear[1], so then are we deadnaming when referring to actual events that took place while Bruce Jenner was competing in the Olympics?" is or is not "deadnaming" turns on the tense or temporal sense of the name "Bruce". > We know that Caitlyn Jenner never won gold medals... No, that's wrong. We know she did win medals when she was still a man going by the name Bruce. Changing gender didn't unwin those medals, eh? Likewise "no woman has ever won Olympic gold in men's events." is true, but she wasn't a woman when she won the medals. > how can Caitlyn Jenner have possibly won those gold medals? A man named Bruce won some medals and then became a woman named Caitlyn. It really seems like you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Is this a problem you have run into in real life? "Caitlyn" and "Bruce" aren't two different humans beings, both names refer to the same person just at different times in their life. Just as a child grows into an adult and then into a old person, there is a change, but we don't consider these to be different entities, eh?
anaisbetts 5y ago
I'm telling you how to talk about trans people in your life, people who are your friends or coworkers. If you want to insist on being Rude, that's your right but you're doing it intentionally at this point, and you should expect that people won't appreciate it. And yes you are absolutely correct, Caitlyn Jenner won some Olympic medals.
- yucky 5y ago
  - anaisbetts 5y ago
    I am telling you, as a trans person, the way that trans people would like to be treated in conversation. You are certainly Free to be incredibly pedantic and Weird about it, and upset the people around you. Casual conversation is not a group exercise in mathematical proofs.
    - yucky 5y ago
      - anaisbetts 5y ago
        Confirmed unrelated.
        yucky 5y ago

naasking 5y ago

> Always use their new name. Consider if you were talking about someone who recently got married So if I'm reading the text of a plaque awarded prior to a transition (or text from a history book describing a person prior to transition, etc.), you're saying that I should not read it verbatim but that I should be substituting in their new name on the fly? Also, I don't see how it's the same thing as changing your name after getting married. Deadnaming has social consequences like getting you banned from Twitter, using a maiden name will not.

anaisbetts 5y ago
I mean yes, if you want to not be rude, that'd be nice! It's not a Law, just like repeatedly shouting in a movie theater and making cell phone calls isn't a Law, but people sure aren't gonna like it when you do it.
- naasking 5y ago
  Thanks for explaining your view on the issue. I think it's unnecessarily confusing in some corner cases, but etiquette is rarely perfectly coherent or well defined in all cases. We muddle through all the same as long as we're all being charitable.