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> You even didn't notify the customer about it in the first place. No customer was ever aware that there was a redundant sensor. To me the 'they didn't tell cu

> You even didn't notify the customer about it in the first place. No customer was ever aware that there was a redundant sensor. To me the 'they didn't tell customers' part of this is really odd, since it's not like it's part of the sales pitch. It's not like when they just stopped adding USB-C ports.

bayindirh 5y ago
My 20 year old Ford has a backup ECU unit inside its ECU and secondary programs if the ECU itself or half of the ignition or fuel transport fried, or the engine is heated beyond control (coolant loss, etc.). I had to use at least one of these modes twice during the ownership of my car, too. My ignition coil's one output went dead, twice. Once overnight, once during driving at highway speeds. In both cases I went to where I need to go safely, because the car knew what to do, and the facilities to do so. These features are written in the user manual as fine prints, but they're not sales points. Nobody advertised these to me. Tesla is selling an autonomous, connected car with enough electronics to fly a small plane, and they rightfully add redundancies inside it. That's great, that's the way it should be. Then they're removing a redundancy feature which might save lives even if it's rarely used. It's akin to MCAS system. "It doesn't change the behavior, so the pilots don't need to know". We know how well it went.
- donkeyd 5y ago
  Yeah, I wasn't saying it isn't a problem they removed it. I don't know whether it is, because I don't know the importance of the part. I was saying how I don't understand that it's a problem they removed a part and didn't tell customers. Parts get added and removed from products all the time without informing customers.
- DerekRobot 5y ago
  At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the Pixhawk org. was more cautious about fail-safe systems than Tesla
- rasz 5y ago
  What you describe is a software fallback (Limp mode), and doesnt require another separate computer. US cars are not my forte, can you name actual year/model so I can see with my own eyes that extra backup ECU unit just sitting there doing nothing?
  - bayindirh 5y ago
    The manual actually stated that there's a "separate, lower capacity, backup ECU is embedded inside the ECU in a case where the main one is damaged and unable to operate the car. That ECU can keep engine synchronization up to 60KM/h and 3000 RPM". In one case, my parent's car's ECU (we drive the same make/model) blown one of its coil signalization lines. In that case the car has no backup for example. You need to tow it, because it can't understand that it's output is gone, and can't get into proper limp mode. You need to tow the car. Cylinder disable on overheat and other modes are proper "limp modes" which keeps car operational when other systems get damaged, but not the ECU. The automatic transmission has its own limp mode too, which is activated by selecting the 3rd gear and making some other internal pressure adjustments.
    - rasz 5y ago
      Why not just reveal that hypothetical car so we can actually verify instead of buying marketing claims?
      - bayindirh 5y ago
        I've told that it's a 20 year old Ford because most of the cars (Fords) of that model year share the same electronic infrastructure. But, here you go: "2001 Ford Focus MK.I"
        rasz 5y ago
        You need to be more specific than that. Here for example is Delphi ecu used by Ford Focus at least between 2001-2005 https://mte.sk/blog/oprava-riadiacej-jednotky-ford-focus-1-8tdci-3m51-12a650-lb/ https://mte.sk/blog/oprava-riadiacej-jednotky-ford-focus-1-8... Looks like later switched to Bosh https://www.ecufile.net/ecu-file-description/BOSCH-EDC16C34-5.95-0281017771-FORD-FOCUS-1.6-TDCI-110HP-9M51-12A650-BH-9CXH-1037508784/16547/ https://www.ecufile.net/ecu-file-description/BOSCH-EDC16C34-... https://www.ecufile.net/ecu-file-description/BOSCH-ME9.0-0261209482-FORD-FOCUS-ST-2.5-20V-TURBO-225HP-9M51-12A650-CE-9M51-12A650-CD-1037531034/13154/ https://www.ecufile.net/ecu-file-description/BOSCH-ME9.0-026... no second ecu hidden inside

bayindirh 5y ago

My 20 year old Ford has a backup ECU unit inside its ECU and secondary programs if the ECU itself or half of the ignition or fuel transport fried, or the engine is heated beyond control (coolant loss, etc.). I had to use at least one of these modes twice during the ownership of my car, too. My ignition coil's one output went dead, twice. Once overnight, once during driving at highway speeds. In both cases I went to where I need to go safely, because the car knew what to do, and the facilities to do so. These features are written in the user manual as fine prints, but they're not sales points. Nobody advertised these to me. Tesla is selling an autonomous, connected car with enough electronics to fly a small plane, and they rightfully add redundancies inside it. That's great, that's the way it should be. Then they're removing a redundancy feature which might save lives even if it's rarely used. It's akin to MCAS system. "It doesn't change the behavior, so the pilots don't need to know". We know how well it went.

donkeyd 5y ago
Yeah, I wasn't saying it isn't a problem they removed it. I don't know whether it is, because I don't know the importance of the part. I was saying how I don't understand that it's a problem they removed a part and didn't tell customers. Parts get added and removed from products all the time without informing customers.
DerekRobot 5y ago
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the Pixhawk org. was more cautious about fail-safe systems than Tesla
rasz 5y ago
What you describe is a software fallback (Limp mode), and doesnt require another separate computer. US cars are not my forte, can you name actual year/model so I can see with my own eyes that extra backup ECU unit just sitting there doing nothing?
- bayindirh 5y ago
  The manual actually stated that there's a "separate, lower capacity, backup ECU is embedded inside the ECU in a case where the main one is damaged and unable to operate the car. That ECU can keep engine synchronization up to 60KM/h and 3000 RPM". In one case, my parent's car's ECU (we drive the same make/model) blown one of its coil signalization lines. In that case the car has no backup for example. You need to tow it, because it can't understand that it's output is gone, and can't get into proper limp mode. You need to tow the car. Cylinder disable on overheat and other modes are proper "limp modes" which keeps car operational when other systems get damaged, but not the ECU. The automatic transmission has its own limp mode too, which is activated by selecting the 3rd gear and making some other internal pressure adjustments.
  - rasz 5y ago
    Why not just reveal that hypothetical car so we can actually verify instead of buying marketing claims?
    - bayindirh 5y ago
      I've told that it's a 20 year old Ford because most of the cars (Fords) of that model year share the same electronic infrastructure. But, here you go: "2001 Ford Focus MK.I"
      - rasz 5y ago
        You need to be more specific than that. Here for example is Delphi ecu used by Ford Focus at least between 2001-2005 https://mte.sk/blog/oprava-riadiacej-jednotky-ford-focus-1-8tdci-3m51-12a650-lb/ https://mte.sk/blog/oprava-riadiacej-jednotky-ford-focus-1-8... Looks like later switched to Bosh https://www.ecufile.net/ecu-file-description/BOSCH-EDC16C34-5.95-0281017771-FORD-FOCUS-1.6-TDCI-110HP-9M51-12A650-BH-9CXH-1037508784/16547/ https://www.ecufile.net/ecu-file-description/BOSCH-EDC16C34-... https://www.ecufile.net/ecu-file-description/BOSCH-ME9.0-0261209482-FORD-FOCUS-ST-2.5-20V-TURBO-225HP-9M51-12A650-CE-9M51-12A650-CD-1037531034/13154/ https://www.ecufile.net/ecu-file-description/BOSCH-ME9.0-026... no second ecu hidden inside