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Removing trucks could be almost 'impossible,' say heavy towing experts
- nsxwolf 5y agoBy far the easiest way to remove the trucks would be to end the COVID mandates.
- mrandish 5y agoYes, this is the simplest, easiest and safest approach. This isn't just an isolated protest. Large portions of the populace (including law enforcement and the military) are either supportive or sympathetic with the goals of the protestors. Trudeau isn't escalating because he can't. He no longer has popular support for his mandates from the electorate or within his own government. The reality is it's past time to remove the mandates anyway. Even die-hard laggard California is dropping most of the mandates this Monday. It seems like Trudeau is more worried about the appearance of his 'Authoritah" slipping.
- furgooswft13 5y ago
- dang 5y agoPlease not take HN threads into nationalistic or racial flamewar. Last thing we need here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- nominated1 5y agoIt’s also the right thing to do. It’s disturbing to see how many here on HN are calling for violent/destructive solutions rather than the one that respects citizens rights.
- throwaway6734 5y agoI don't know what it's like in Canada, but in the US vaccine mandates are generally on strong legal ground
- cdot2 5y agocivil rights can't be violated on strong legal grounds?
- throwaway6734 5y agoHow do you define a violation of rights?
- effingwewt 5y agoI will assume good faith, here[1] is the definition. [1] https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/criminal-civil-rights-violation/ https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/criminal-civil-rights-viol...
- throwaway6734 5y agoWhich is decided by courts
- effingwewt 5y agoOh you mean the mandates the Supreme Court just struck down?[1] I am vaccinated but I stand with my brothers and sisters who demand a choice. Had it been mandated and had I known then what I know now, I would have not taken it. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/13/us/politics/supreme-court-biden-vaccine-mandate.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/13/us/politics/supreme-court...
- throwaway6734 5y agoThe supreme court struck down part of the mandate and were open to the idea of it being employment/situationally specific (e.g., nurses). There's also no pushback against vaccination requirements for school and universities, but I'm sure that will be coming soon
- voisin 5y agoI suspect giving in to them will embolden them to just switch to some other issue to protest. They are there for deeper reasons than the mandates IMO. I think it has to do with inequality and feeling voiceless in the political process.
- disambiguation 5y agoI doubt it. They are protesting in reaction to a policy that suddenly disrupted their lives. This is not a group that's united around decades of systemic oppression like other civil rights movements. They're united against a common enemy. If the mandate goes away, so do the truckers.
- pupppet 5y agoDisrupted their lives by needing a vaccine proven safe, I don't think so. It's purely political. Hey remember the truckers pushing back on having to wear a seatbelt? Yeah, me neither.
- disambiguation 5y agoYou're right, I don't remember people losing their jobs for not wearing seat-belts.
- pupppet 5y agoRight, let's see them keep their jobs refusing to wear a seatbelt.
- captainredbeard 5y ago> vaccine proven safe There's enough medical dissent surrounding the topic to warrant pause, especially for something that gives no value to the receiver (young, healthy folks).
- pupppet 5y ago
- archagon 5y agoIf the majority is in favor of mandates (dunno if true), it would be a blatantly undemocratic move.
- mikem170 5y agoThe 51% percent shouldn't get to do anything they want to the other 49%. Democracy can/should be more nuanced than simple majority/mob rule. Super majorities, local rule, and consensus are all ways of achieving that. Ideally groups of people would not be allowed to impose on other groups of people. I'm just throwing out a general statement about the idea of democracy, food for thought. Many places haven't voted on lockdowns. I think Switzerland did at some point, which makes sense (as they are more of a real democracy than Canada). There's an initial emergency that may need a quick response, but later on there is time for the people to vote.
- archagon 5y agoSure, but if, let’s say, 85% are in favor of lockdowns (or mandatory schooling, or seatbelts, or…), then letting the loud 15% dictate your policy by attrition is also mob rule.
- mikem170 5y ago85% sounds a lot better to me than a 51% majority, which was partially my point. Your point about the minority dictating policy by attrition is interesting to think about. Conservatives might tend to like that feature, not adding new laws unless enough people agree. I assume Progressives would tend to feel the opposite. I'd add that the amount of people voting would seem to make a big difference. It's hard for tens or hundreds of millions of people to agree, easier for smaller groups. Compromise is also a wonderful thing, too, when the 85% respect the 15% enough to do so.
- nathanaldensr 5y agoGood luck collecting any statistics nowadays that are trusted by the entire population. Propaganda and lies have never been thicker than they are now, and it's coordinated worldwide.
- benjamir 5y agoTank, or something like this: https://youtu.be/cD5dIyI7AoY https://youtu.be/cD5dIyI7AoY Done. Who says the tires have to be treated nicely?
- floatingatoll 5y agoWould a plasma cutter be able to permanently destroy the engines in each truck rapidly beyond repairability, so that they’re “disarmed” and can be relocated safely without malicious driver interference? I assume these are going to be taken out by demolition crane anyways, and it would provide a simple and immediate on-site tool to turn them into worthless scrap metal.
- Ancapistani 5y agoDestroying them out of spite sounds like a very effective way of turning a civil protest into an insurgency.
- throwaway6734 5y ago
- Ancapistani 5y agoMy statement wasn’t in support or opposition to these actions. I’m very carefully not taking a position on this site, on this issue or many others. What I am saying is that it seems like a large proportion of the Canadian public already support this. Probably not a majority, but still a lot of people. The government can’t just start applying extreme measures without at least considering the reaction of its citizens. Punitive actions like unnecessarily destroying these people’s livelihoods will not only further radicalize those involved but also sway public opinion toward them.
- willcipriano 5y agoNobody likes the other sides domestic terrorists.
- pjc50 5y agoPresumably those trucks have registered owners who will be billed for the cost of removing them and the disruption? The backlash against environmentalist protestors in the UK has resulted in jail time: https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/court-jails-star-paralympian-for-gluing-himself-to-plane/ https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/court-jails-star-paralympian-for-...
- koenigdavidmj 5y agoAnyone still there has already counted the cost and decided that jail and fines are insufficient to dissuade them. Just like every other protest movement that you like. Now what? Also, you’re Canada, not China, so you’re hamstrung by those pesky human rights. Jail and fines is all you can do; you can’t just shoot ‘em all
- Arnt 5y agoIf you park against the rules in Canada and obstruct others, can they sue you to recover any costs that is/may be caused by the obstruction? In a small claims court, perhaps?
- throwaway6734 5y agoStart jailing and fining them?
- voisin 5y agoTake possession and hold them until their fines are paid and if they fail to pay them in a certain period auction them off to recoup the costs.
- rasz 5y agoWell, you could sterilize all the women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization_in_Ca...
- Jansen333 5y ago
- unethical_ban 5y ago>Some activists have alleged the Ottawa Police Service's treatment of the truck convoy has displayed a double standard, since in November 2020, officers moved in on a group blocking an intersection to protest the force's treatment of Black and Indigenous people within days. >But Skof said removing the convoy is a more difficult task: "You're talking about pedestrians for one thing, versus vehicles that weigh thousands of pounds." --- This is the same lesson regarding weapons. Those with tools of force can oppose the government, while those without cannot. Maybe left-wing groups need to buy a few Freightliners for future protests.
- Justsignedup 5y agothis "protest" is only showing that next time, BLM needs to march with trucks. But then again it is also showing that perhaps the cops side more with the right-leaning "protests".
- Ancapistani 5y agoI strongly suspect that “BLM support” is not a normal distribution, and that the overlap between “BLM supporter” and “owner of a large commercial vehicle” is relatively small. I’m from the US, and each side of the aisle has its own methods that it can employ effectively. The Canada seems pretty similar in this regard.
- Tiktaalik 5y agoWe need to recognize that trucks big and regular sized are tools for force projection, easily potentially used as weapons of lethal force, and need to be banned and severely restricted from protest use.
- quantified 5y agoWhen the truck is being towed, how is that “pedestrian vs truck”? I thought the tow activity would happen in the street?
- unethical_ban 5y ago
- Justsignedup 5y agolol as someone pointed out on reddit... "If you give me a torch and no libability, and salvage rights, I will guarantee you all the trucks will be removed by the end of the week, for free."
- eddieh 5y agoRent some CH-47 Chinook heavy-lift helicopters from the US.
- Ancapistani 5y agoThe CAF bought 15 of them a few years ago for use in Afghanistan, if memory serves.
- kylehotchkiss 5y agoThey also could rent large tow trucks from US who don't have the same reputation to manage with the trucking companies, maybe?
- skybrian 5y agoI'm wondering what happens when a truck gets repossessed? Presumably they'd break in somehow.
- bell-cot 5y agotl;dr version - Naive "tow all the trucks away" ideas are ~useless in the real world, because towing just one heavy truck out of a tight spot, when the driver is friendly, is very difficult and laborious. At scale, against hostile truck drivers, when the tow truck drivers are (as a social group) quite close to them? Hahahaha. There would be plenty of easy solutions, if the Canadian government was comfortable with Evil Dictator tactics - but for some reason(s) it is not...
- voisin 5y agoTrudeau Sr would have been comfortable with this. “Just watch me”
- calyth2018 5y agoLoad of bullshit that the air brakes can't be released. The air horns that they've been blaring at 100-120db (or more) is tied to the air system that supplies the brakes. If they can blare the horn, they've got air pressure to release the brakes.
- dcdc123 5y agoFrom the article: > Heavy-duty tow trucks can transfer air from their system to the trucks to release the brakes, Allen said. Failing that, they could "cage" the brakes, which involves manually backing the brake off each individual wheel. "We have all the capabilities on our tow trucks to do it … but I don't think anyone would want to," he said. That's because many companies who provide heavy towing would be hesitant to risk their relationships with trucking companies, Allen said.
- calyth2018 5y agoThat's the real reason why the heavy towing companies don't want to do it. This all started with an epic failure by the OPS and the city of Ottawa for allowing vehicles right up the hill in the first place. They don't have problems shutting down all car traffic for Canada Day, or other events like La Machine. Hell, I've seen specific barriers meant to trap and disable cars in the Byward market. If you want to determine intention, you're better off looking at action over words. The action taken thus far by the OPS says a hell of a lot.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago> Police remove fuel from protest camps That... seems counterproductive if you want the trucks gone?
- calyth2018 5y agoIt's minus -10C at night for the next couple of nights, given we're expecting snow. 7 day forecast puts it at -20C at night. They're staying in the cabs at night, and they can blare their horn, if there's fuel.
- senectus1 5y agonot to mention a potential safety risk.
- disambiguation 5y ago""" The Bonus Army was a group of 43,000 demonstrators – made up of 17,000 veterans of the United States in World War I, together with their families and affiliated groups – who gathered in Washington, D.C. in mid-1932 to demand early cash redemption of their service bonus certificates... Many of the war veterans had been out of work since the beginning of the Great Depression. The World War Adjusted Compensation Act of 1924 had awarded them bonuses in the form of certificates they could not redeem until 1945. Each certificate, issued to a qualified veteran soldier, bore a face value equal to the soldier's promised payment with compound interest. The principal demand of the Bonus Army was the immediate cash payment of their certificates. On July 28, 1932, U.S. Attorney General William D. Mitchell ordered the veterans removed from all government property. Washington police met with resistance, shot at the protestors, and two veterans were wounded and later died. President Herbert Hoover then ordered the U.S. Army to clear the marchers' campsite. Army Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur commanded a contingent of infantry and cavalry, supported by six tanks. The Bonus Army marchers with their wives and children were driven out, and their shelters and belongings burned. ... Though the Bonus Army incident did not derail the careers of the military officers involved, it proved politically disastrous for Hoover, and it is considered a contributing factor to his losing the 1932 election in a landslide to Franklin D. Roosevelt. """ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army
- cdot2 5y agoWould banks not be willing to buy those certificates from them for at least face value?
- SauciestGNU 5y agoWith what capital? The banks were in the process of failing.
- 0xbadc0de5 5y agoRegardless of whether you agree with the truckers' methods, it's becoming increasingly difficult to justify the lockdowns and mandates. They've outlived their usefulness and are now doing more economic harm than public health good. If you disagree, I only request that you ask yourself: If you were suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, would you recognise it?
- notacoward 5y ago> If you were suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, would you recognise it? If you were suffering from Oppositional Defiant Disorder, would you recognize it? Gaslighting is not a very convincing argument, and that's exactly what it is when you implicitly accuse anyone who disagrees with you of having an invisible psychological problem. It's really is still possible for people to disagree on vaccine and mask mandates, both expressing legitimate reasons and concerns, without resort to such cheap tactics.
- captainredbeard 5y ago> If you were suffering from Oppositional Defiant Disorder, would you recognize it? FWIW, "The State" has long labeled anti-tyranny dissenters with labels like that. That's why things like ODD are based around _behaviors and actions which are problematic_ vs the dissenting opinion per se. Freedom of conscious is vital. Without it, we are simply automatons programmed by technocrats.
- notacoward 5y ago> FWIW, "The State" has long labeled anti-tyranny dissenters with labels like that. ...and for just as long, plutocracy's "laissez faire" foot soldiers have been accusing everyone else of Stockholm Syndrome. That's kind of my point. We should be able to have a debate without the name calling, whether it's done blatantly enough for the moderators to act or not-so-subtly disguised with the "anyone who..." ruse.
- rssoconnor 5y agoHow about we wait until hospitals have the capacity to resume elective surgeries. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/waterloo-region-elective-surgery-delays-due-to-covid-clog-1.6339749 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/waterloo-r... Ontario hospitalization of people with COVID-19 peaked on January 18th, less than one month ago, at the highest level ever recorded during this pandemic. While perhaps less than half of those hospitalized are there for COVID, nevertheless, those people need to be put in isolation wards. That is, unless you believe that the second-most contagious virus known should be just allowed to course through hospital wards. Ontario COVID ICU usage peaked on January 24th at the second highest level ever seen during this pandemic. That was only two weeks ago. On Jan 31st Ontario eased their lockdown and there is great uncertainty about whether hospital and ICU admissions are going to start increasing again in the subsequent weeks because we have only a limited understanding of how many people were infected during the Omicron wave. Baring another mutation that would thrust COVID into the position of the most contagious known virus, or otherwise evade immunity, we are nearing the end of the pandemic phase, where the virus is novel to the general population, and entering an endemic phase. Hospital beds will clear, surgeries will resume and then we can resume a more normal lifestyle. However, if you are a fan of medical services, like I am, we probably need a little bit more time.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rasz 5y agoObviously there is nothing else left than to deploy military, how dare Canadians rise against the benevolent rule of the Government?!?!
- ComradePhil 5y agoI find the freedom convoy thing very fishy, hear me out. It is a bit suspicious that this is a grassroots movement actually against vaccine mandates, considering the attention and financial support it has been getting... and specially considering how the Canadian government is handling it. Trudeau dissappearing, no real possibility of negotiations, talks or anything... and who is even leading these protests? It seems very strange. Even more strange is the likes of CNN publishing opinion pieces in favor of the protests: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/03/opinions/canada-truckers-protests-covid-19-trudeau-cohen/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/03/opinions/canada-truckers-...