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The headline here is that this is yet another instance of the company lying to its customers. Yes, intentionally withholding information is a form of lying. I d

The headline here is that this is yet another instance of the company lying to its customers. Yes, intentionally withholding information is a form of lying. I do not understand how we can live in a time that people are disgusted with Facebook's behavior and VW's scandal in living memory and consciously give Tesla the benefit of the doubt. It is all corporations lying to consumers in the name of the bottom line. You either like it or you don't. The shape of the logo does not matter.

avianlyric 5y ago
How exactly is the company lying? It’s not like the spec sheet for the car specifically lists redundant power steering systems, it’s a minor implementation detail. Would you expect Tesla to also put out an announcement if they started sourcing their upholstery from a different source, or used different stitching on the steering wheel? None of this thing impact the usability of the car in any meaningful way, and none of them are listed as part of the detailed specs. Teslas also add new things to their cars all the time, such as matrix headlights that they added to the Model 3 last year, and heat pump based heating system.
- hervature 5y ago
  From the article: > Internally, Tesla employees said that adding “level 3” functionality, which would allow a driver to use their Tesla hands-free without steering in normal driving scenarios, would need the dual electronic control unit system and therefore require a retrofit at a service visit. How many of these customers are expecting to simply update their car to FSD over the air? I agree, other manufacturers would not have the responsibility. But one of the main selling points of Tesla has been that, one day, your car will drive itself if you choose to buy $X upgrade with the heavy implication of over the air. Edit: Consider this, in the future, when people go to sell their cars, potential buyers will ask "does this car have the dual ECU?" for the sole reason of inquiring if they need to go to get the car serviced for FSD. If you don't think this makes Tesla bound to inform their customers that their car will obviously be impacted on resale and allow them to back out of the purchase, I don't think we will ever see eye to eye.
  - darkwater 5y ago
    > How many of these customers are expecting to simply update their car to FSD over the air? I agree, other manufacturers would not have the responsibility. But one of the main selling points of Tesla has been that, one day, your car will drive itself if you choose to buy $X upgrade with the heavy implication of over the air. I understand your point but it would be just as simple as that, when you purchase FSD, you are notified that you have to go to the nearest Tesla service to get it, at no extra cost (well, beside the FSD cost obviously). It's an annoyance, sure, but not a big deal.
    - FireBeyond 5y ago
      "The car contains all the equipment necessary for FSD." "... except the parts that you'll need to go book a service appointment to have installed at a later date."
  - optimiz3 5y ago
    > How many of these customers are expecting to simply update their car to FSD over the air? Probably not many since the market is China where FSD is not currently offered.
    - hervature 5y ago
      From the article: > Tesla did not disclose the exclusion, which has already affected tens of thousands of vehicles being shipped to customers in China, Australia, the U.K., Germany and other parts of Europe. Do you honestly think that cars produced in a country stay in that country?
      - avianlyric 5y ago
        Most of them will, and the odds of FSD coming to Europe are zero to none. The EU has already been putting rules out on the topic of FSD, and honestly I doubt Teslas will meet the bar, with or without dual steering systems. I agree that Tesla are lying about the idea their cars have all the hardware needed for FSD. But that was true (at least in EU cars) before this change.
cainxinth 5y ago
I agree. There was an article recently about the new mayor of NYC being caught eating fish even though he’s claimed many times to be vegan. He was complaining that the “food police” was harassing him over something trivial. My reaction was the same as to this news. I don’t care if Tesla made a small change, and I don’t care what Adams eats. I care about transparency and honesty.
- thaway2839 5y ago
  Hilarious considering the 2 things are completely different. I'm not paying Adams many thousands of dollars to be Vegan. People are paying Tesla many tens of thousands of dollars to do stuff they claim they will do, haven't yet done, and by these actions are even more unlikely to be able to do.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    If your criteria are "people paid thousands of dollars", I bet you could find two donors of $2,000 or more to Adams who did so because they wanted a vegan mayor. Now, I agree they are not the same severity. But the line you drew doesn't make sense.
- radu_floricica 5y ago
  Would you want Tesla to publish _every_ small change they make, or just this one because you read about it? Because absolutely no company in the world anywhere will publish all changes they make to their product or production line. What we're seeing here is a rather pesky bias called "Isolated Demand for Rigor". You shouldn't feel bad: it's quite common, very hard to figure out if you don't know about it, and almost impossible if it mixes with confirmation bias. For a fun post about it: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/14/beware-isolated-demands-for-rigor/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/14/beware-isolated-demand... Well. For certain values of fun. I always thought Scott was so pissed at this bias he was in a very "fuck you" mood when he wrote it.

avianlyric 5y ago

How exactly is the company lying? It’s not like the spec sheet for the car specifically lists redundant power steering systems, it’s a minor implementation detail. Would you expect Tesla to also put out an announcement if they started sourcing their upholstery from a different source, or used different stitching on the steering wheel? None of this thing impact the usability of the car in any meaningful way, and none of them are listed as part of the detailed specs. Teslas also add new things to their cars all the time, such as matrix headlights that they added to the Model 3 last year, and heat pump based heating system.

hervature 5y ago
From the article: > Internally, Tesla employees said that adding “level 3” functionality, which would allow a driver to use their Tesla hands-free without steering in normal driving scenarios, would need the dual electronic control unit system and therefore require a retrofit at a service visit. How many of these customers are expecting to simply update their car to FSD over the air? I agree, other manufacturers would not have the responsibility. But one of the main selling points of Tesla has been that, one day, your car will drive itself if you choose to buy $X upgrade with the heavy implication of over the air. Edit: Consider this, in the future, when people go to sell their cars, potential buyers will ask "does this car have the dual ECU?" for the sole reason of inquiring if they need to go to get the car serviced for FSD. If you don't think this makes Tesla bound to inform their customers that their car will obviously be impacted on resale and allow them to back out of the purchase, I don't think we will ever see eye to eye.
- darkwater 5y ago
  > How many of these customers are expecting to simply update their car to FSD over the air? I agree, other manufacturers would not have the responsibility. But one of the main selling points of Tesla has been that, one day, your car will drive itself if you choose to buy $X upgrade with the heavy implication of over the air. I understand your point but it would be just as simple as that, when you purchase FSD, you are notified that you have to go to the nearest Tesla service to get it, at no extra cost (well, beside the FSD cost obviously). It's an annoyance, sure, but not a big deal.
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    "The car contains all the equipment necessary for FSD." "... except the parts that you'll need to go book a service appointment to have installed at a later date."
- optimiz3 5y ago
  > How many of these customers are expecting to simply update their car to FSD over the air? Probably not many since the market is China where FSD is not currently offered.
  - hervature 5y ago
    From the article: > Tesla did not disclose the exclusion, which has already affected tens of thousands of vehicles being shipped to customers in China, Australia, the U.K., Germany and other parts of Europe. Do you honestly think that cars produced in a country stay in that country?
    - avianlyric 5y ago
      Most of them will, and the odds of FSD coming to Europe are zero to none. The EU has already been putting rules out on the topic of FSD, and honestly I doubt Teslas will meet the bar, with or without dual steering systems. I agree that Tesla are lying about the idea their cars have all the hardware needed for FSD. But that was true (at least in EU cars) before this change.

cainxinth 5y ago

I agree. There was an article recently about the new mayor of NYC being caught eating fish even though he’s claimed many times to be vegan. He was complaining that the “food police” was harassing him over something trivial. My reaction was the same as to this news. I don’t care if Tesla made a small change, and I don’t care what Adams eats. I care about transparency and honesty.

thaway2839 5y ago
Hilarious considering the 2 things are completely different. I'm not paying Adams many thousands of dollars to be Vegan. People are paying Tesla many tens of thousands of dollars to do stuff they claim they will do, haven't yet done, and by these actions are even more unlikely to be able to do.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  If your criteria are "people paid thousands of dollars", I bet you could find two donors of $2,000 or more to Adams who did so because they wanted a vegan mayor. Now, I agree they are not the same severity. But the line you drew doesn't make sense.
radu_floricica 5y ago
Would you want Tesla to publish _every_ small change they make, or just this one because you read about it? Because absolutely no company in the world anywhere will publish all changes they make to their product or production line. What we're seeing here is a rather pesky bias called "Isolated Demand for Rigor". You shouldn't feel bad: it's quite common, very hard to figure out if you don't know about it, and almost impossible if it mixes with confirmation bias. For a fun post about it: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/14/beware-isolated-demands-for-rigor/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/14/beware-isolated-demand... Well. For certain values of fun. I always thought Scott was so pissed at this bias he was in a very "fuck you" mood when he wrote it.