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Counterpoint: People write worse poetry than they used to, the books are worse now, and all the architecture is terrible. Grant that they don't have anything i

Counterpoint: People write worse poetry than they used to, the books are worse now, and all the architecture is terrible. Grant that they don't have anything interesting to write about and it's too expensive to build decent buildings, but the poetry is indisputable.

alamortsubite 5y ago
There was no shortage of bad poems, books, and architecture in the past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
- yanmaani 5y ago
  This is an intriguing proposition, but for the architecture we can trivially prove it false. Just go outside and look at the new developments going up, then go to the library and look at pictures of literal tenements from a hundred years ago. Even their industrial buildings looked good!
  - lajy 5y ago
    I'd say architecture fits in a bit differently here, due to the extremely high barriers to entry (you have to secure property AND fund the design AND fund the construction) compared to almost any other form of artistic expression. American society (and much of the rest of the world) has become more profit-focused over time, and buildings are a huge cost. Therefore, they've been increasingly designed to be purpose-built. Aesthetics cost money, and rarely serve the purpose of whoever is paying for the building. If you funded the most talented architects alive to create works of beauty, I bet you'd get it.
  - SuoDuanDao 5y ago
    You're not wrong, but I think that's more a function of how one becomes a respected architect than the potentials of the students. I suspect it's an out growth of what Taleb called the 'expert problem' in that the best architects are anointed as such by other architects, rather than the public.
watwut 5y ago
What makes you think there are less interesting things to write about then in the past?
- yanmaani 5y ago
  Not a whole lot going on. Back in the day, you always would have some kind of good war going on, for one. And then you had all of those other big cultural issues, you could always pump out a book about communism or three. Today, all we can do is to express our opinion on whether or not a man named Joe Rogan has a good podcast.
  - watwut 5y ago
    There are multiple wars going on right now? There was attempt to overthrow election results last year? You can write about terrorism, islamic, far right wing, incels, blm protests, drugs. Many famous classics are about interpersonal issues and down to earth minor issues which is something that still goes on. You can write about good old alcoholism, abuse, love. The crime still exists, so something like Crime and Punishment is super doable.
cgio 5y ago
Do you subscribe to any poetry publication? Poetry, New Yorker, three penny review and plenty other big and small publications have great contemporary poems. I would rather argue we are much worse in reading poetry now.
- yanmaani 5y ago
  Great contemporary poems, perhaps, but not contemporary great poems. If we look at the current issue[0] of The Threepenny Review, the pathology is quite obvious. The three "poems" in the list all share certain features: - A variable amount of syllables per line (e.g. no metre) - No rhymes - No other discernible differences from prose At that point, why even bother calling it a poem? You might as well save yourself the time by opening up the day's newspaper in a text editor, clicking randomly, and pressing enter. When you feel there's enough line breaks, you're ready to publish. [0]: https://www.threepennyreview.com/current.html https://www.threepennyreview.com/current.html
  - kmstout 5y ago
    A poem, by the Washington Post and Emacs auto-fill-mode: Russian warships sailed toward the Black Sea on Tuesday, stoking alarm among U.S. and European security officials who warned that the final capabilities for a large-scale assault on Ukraine appeared to be falling into place. On a day of frantic shuttle diplomacy by French President Emmanuel Macron, who hopped among capitals trying to avert a conflict, Russian officials gave little sign that the French leader’s initiatives had changed their calculations. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/08/ukraine-russia-biden-putin-macron/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/08/ukraine-russ...
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "Do you subscribe to any poetry publication? Poetry, New Yorker, three penny review and plenty other big and small publications have great contemporary poems. I would rather argue we are much worse in reading poetry now." This is all so subjective. Very few poems resonate with me... maybe something like 1 out of 100, and almost always they're old poems, like those by Kabir, Emily Dickinson, and Robert Frost. It's exceedingly rare for any contemporary poetry that I've read to come anywhere close to being as moving, interesting, or deep as some of these classics. That said, 99% of old poetry doesn't move me either. I'd read a lot more poetry if the signal to noise ratio was higher, but sadly for my taste it's not.
pmoriarty 5y ago
"People write worse poetry than they used to, the books are worse now, and all the architecture is terrible." What percentage of newly created poetry, books, and architecture do you read or look at? There's an absolute glut of information right now, and no human is capable of consuming more than a tiny fraction of it. I'm absolutely sure that "great" creative work is being made right now, but it's going to take time for humanity to sift through everything out there to find the gold. That's not to mention that one man's trash is another man's treasure, and plenty of people who we consider "great" now were completely ignored or even denigrated in their lifetimes.
edanm 5y ago
Not a big poetry reader, but books are definitely not worse now. Some of the best books I've ever read have been published in the last 10-20 years, across various genres. Not to mention the huge leap in quality of TV writing.

alamortsubite 5y ago

There was no shortage of bad poems, books, and architecture in the past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

yanmaani 5y ago
This is an intriguing proposition, but for the architecture we can trivially prove it false. Just go outside and look at the new developments going up, then go to the library and look at pictures of literal tenements from a hundred years ago. Even their industrial buildings looked good!
- lajy 5y ago
  I'd say architecture fits in a bit differently here, due to the extremely high barriers to entry (you have to secure property AND fund the design AND fund the construction) compared to almost any other form of artistic expression. American society (and much of the rest of the world) has become more profit-focused over time, and buildings are a huge cost. Therefore, they've been increasingly designed to be purpose-built. Aesthetics cost money, and rarely serve the purpose of whoever is paying for the building. If you funded the most talented architects alive to create works of beauty, I bet you'd get it.
- SuoDuanDao 5y ago
  You're not wrong, but I think that's more a function of how one becomes a respected architect than the potentials of the students. I suspect it's an out growth of what Taleb called the 'expert problem' in that the best architects are anointed as such by other architects, rather than the public.

watwut 5y ago

What makes you think there are less interesting things to write about then in the past?

yanmaani 5y ago
Not a whole lot going on. Back in the day, you always would have some kind of good war going on, for one. And then you had all of those other big cultural issues, you could always pump out a book about communism or three. Today, all we can do is to express our opinion on whether or not a man named Joe Rogan has a good podcast.
- watwut 5y ago
  There are multiple wars going on right now? There was attempt to overthrow election results last year? You can write about terrorism, islamic, far right wing, incels, blm protests, drugs. Many famous classics are about interpersonal issues and down to earth minor issues which is something that still goes on. You can write about good old alcoholism, abuse, love. The crime still exists, so something like Crime and Punishment is super doable.

cgio 5y ago

Do you subscribe to any poetry publication? Poetry, New Yorker, three penny review and plenty other big and small publications have great contemporary poems. I would rather argue we are much worse in reading poetry now.

yanmaani 5y ago
Great contemporary poems, perhaps, but not contemporary great poems. If we look at the current issue[0] of The Threepenny Review, the pathology is quite obvious. The three "poems" in the list all share certain features: - A variable amount of syllables per line (e.g. no metre) - No rhymes - No other discernible differences from prose At that point, why even bother calling it a poem? You might as well save yourself the time by opening up the day's newspaper in a text editor, clicking randomly, and pressing enter. When you feel there's enough line breaks, you're ready to publish. [0]: https://www.threepennyreview.com/current.html https://www.threepennyreview.com/current.html
- kmstout 5y ago
  A poem, by the Washington Post and Emacs auto-fill-mode: Russian warships sailed toward the Black Sea on Tuesday, stoking alarm among U.S. and European security officials who warned that the final capabilities for a large-scale assault on Ukraine appeared to be falling into place. On a day of frantic shuttle diplomacy by French President Emmanuel Macron, who hopped among capitals trying to avert a conflict, Russian officials gave little sign that the French leader’s initiatives had changed their calculations. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/08/ukraine-russia-biden-putin-macron/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/08/ukraine-russ...
pmoriarty 5y ago
"Do you subscribe to any poetry publication? Poetry, New Yorker, three penny review and plenty other big and small publications have great contemporary poems. I would rather argue we are much worse in reading poetry now." This is all so subjective. Very few poems resonate with me... maybe something like 1 out of 100, and almost always they're old poems, like those by Kabir, Emily Dickinson, and Robert Frost. It's exceedingly rare for any contemporary poetry that I've read to come anywhere close to being as moving, interesting, or deep as some of these classics. That said, 99% of old poetry doesn't move me either. I'd read a lot more poetry if the signal to noise ratio was higher, but sadly for my taste it's not.

pmoriarty 5y ago

"People write worse poetry than they used to, the books are worse now, and all the architecture is terrible." What percentage of newly created poetry, books, and architecture do you read or look at? There's an absolute glut of information right now, and no human is capable of consuming more than a tiny fraction of it. I'm absolutely sure that "great" creative work is being made right now, but it's going to take time for humanity to sift through everything out there to find the gold. That's not to mention that one man's trash is another man's treasure, and plenty of people who we consider "great" now were completely ignored or even denigrated in their lifetimes.

edanm 5y ago

Not a big poetry reader, but books are definitely not worse now. Some of the best books I've ever read have been published in the last 10-20 years, across various genres. Not to mention the huge leap in quality of TV writing.