9 ms·

Meanwhile, I left a Haskell job for a Go job. Language isn’t the be-all end-all of a software project. I’ll take a well maintained and well documented Java cod

by q3k 5y ago

Meanwhile, I left a Haskell job for a Go job. Language isn’t the be-all end-all of a software project. I’ll take a well maintained and well documented Java codebase over a write-only Haskell codebase with more lines of language extension imports than lines of comments. Software developers who only look for jobs always in That One Language freak me out.

pyrale 5y ago
> Language isn’t the be-all end-all of a software project. Certainly not, but at some point you make a move to scratch an itch. Sick of doing typeless python with runtime issues everywhere? A typed language may be a good break from that. Annoyed of Haskell in a company where people care more about their exceptions than about the business? Maybe you'll do the opposite move. It's not so much about doing things the one right way as experimenting with what makes you productive and happy. And if people find they're comfortable doing that one thing only, good for them.
irpapakons 5y ago
Yep. I wanted a job writing haskell. Got a job writing haskell. It was one of the worst jobs I ever hard (for non-haskell reasons). Team dynamics, culture, how good is a manager, how overengineered is a code base, how easy it is to feel valued and given responsibility. There's so many more important things than the language that now I actively don't care at all. Plus, I think these elitist programming languages attract more jerks so I'd rather avoid anything too niche and go for a Go job or something.
- rstarast 5y ago
  I'm not that sure about "for non-haskell reasons". Haskell seems to select for people who enjoy going off on puzzling tangents, and it seems like it takes so much learning that for many, meta skills such as good engineering and communication practices fall by the wayside.
vjust 5y ago
Agreed on most points there. On the flip side, I was running away from That One Language (Java). I was put off by its verbal diarrhea (when it came to naming classes - blame it on Spring perhaps). And the gratuitous use of OOPs concepts (which I attribute to being a scripter for much of my working life). Perhaps it was more to do with the organization I worked for, it might have been a very (toxic) culture thing that they encouraged - 1) If you didn't know Java you weren't cool. 2) If you didn't know Java you didn't understand OOPs. Lots of companies have such culture issues over languages. Its managers/leadership's job to ensure the tool doesn't become the master, to the detriment of goals. I've been deliberately been a slow-poke when it came to absorbing languages, far from the bleeding edge within the ecosystem I was in. Hasn't hurt at all. Pushing back on trends (once you're 'inside' a language) means you are looking around, and absorbing more of the problem (business domain). If you emerge from an old-job into a new-job, and the only take away is bleeding-edge language/platform features, there's some richness of experience that's been missed IMO, maybe its useful at early career stage, but you need to see the whole picture, not just uber details about a language.
moonchrome 5y ago
> I’ll take a well maintained and well documented Java codebase I get your point but at some point the boilerplate becomes depression inducing for me, I can't see myself being motivated to work on a Java codebase, the language and the patterns that arise from it just get in the way of solving the problem too much. It's like having to do a relatively easy job but only being allowed to use one hand, it becomes frustrating that you can't use both hands when you see it would take 1/2 effort and then I become even less motivated to work and it's a bad spiral :)
yodsanklai 5y ago
Agree 100%. I worked in Haskell project too, which overall was fun but it came with many drawbacks. > Software developers who only look for jobs always in That One Language freak me out. Indeed, I understand personal preferences, but it's hard to work with people who are religious about languages.
porcoda 5y ago
Same. Left it for job that doesn’t involve Haskell and far happier. Turns out picking jobs based on technology misses other important factors like what the technology is used for and how a workplace treats its people. Now I use technology I’d rather not, but in a super positive environment, and I’m happier than I ever was before.
- ParetoOptimal 5y ago
  > Now I use technology I’d rather not, but in a super positive environment, and I’m happier than I ever was before. I tried that, but knowing the issue your whole team faces or that is putting you in a crunch would have or likely been avoided with a better language was too grating for me.
tootie 5y ago
Yeah, I recently took a job with a language I don't really know and don't really like. I'm doing it because it's for a beneficial and positive product that I'm happy to improve for customers.
blablabla123 5y ago
Something similar happened to me. I worked at a job where someone proposed using a purely functional React framework. Ironically I ended up implementing most code and everyone else left eventually so I worked on it alone. People underestimate how non-standard that stuff is. Nowadays I rather avoid using a Functional programming language although I've seen also other companies using or considering pure FP but it's usually a one man army...
ParetoOptimal 5y ago
I went from Go to Haskell so I could sleep at night. map[string]interface{}, pervasive null, and lack of sum types kept pager duty ringing.

by q3k 5y ago

pyrale 5y ago

> Language isn’t the be-all end-all of a software project. Certainly not, but at some point you make a move to scratch an itch. Sick of doing typeless python with runtime issues everywhere? A typed language may be a good break from that. Annoyed of Haskell in a company where people care more about their exceptions than about the business? Maybe you'll do the opposite move. It's not so much about doing things the one right way as experimenting with what makes you productive and happy. And if people find they're comfortable doing that one thing only, good for them.

irpapakons 5y ago

Yep. I wanted a job writing haskell. Got a job writing haskell. It was one of the worst jobs I ever hard (for non-haskell reasons). Team dynamics, culture, how good is a manager, how overengineered is a code base, how easy it is to feel valued and given responsibility. There's so many more important things than the language that now I actively don't care at all. Plus, I think these elitist programming languages attract more jerks so I'd rather avoid anything too niche and go for a Go job or something.

rstarast 5y ago
I'm not that sure about "for non-haskell reasons". Haskell seems to select for people who enjoy going off on puzzling tangents, and it seems like it takes so much learning that for many, meta skills such as good engineering and communication practices fall by the wayside.

vjust 5y ago

Agreed on most points there. On the flip side, I was running away from That One Language (Java). I was put off by its verbal diarrhea (when it came to naming classes - blame it on Spring perhaps). And the gratuitous use of OOPs concepts (which I attribute to being a scripter for much of my working life). Perhaps it was more to do with the organization I worked for, it might have been a very (toxic) culture thing that they encouraged - 1) If you didn't know Java you weren't cool. 2) If you didn't know Java you didn't understand OOPs. Lots of companies have such culture issues over languages. Its managers/leadership's job to ensure the tool doesn't become the master, to the detriment of goals. I've been deliberately been a slow-poke when it came to absorbing languages, far from the bleeding edge within the ecosystem I was in. Hasn't hurt at all. Pushing back on trends (once you're 'inside' a language) means you are looking around, and absorbing more of the problem (business domain). If you emerge from an old-job into a new-job, and the only take away is bleeding-edge language/platform features, there's some richness of experience that's been missed IMO, maybe its useful at early career stage, but you need to see the whole picture, not just uber details about a language.

moonchrome 5y ago

> I’ll take a well maintained and well documented Java codebase I get your point but at some point the boilerplate becomes depression inducing for me, I can't see myself being motivated to work on a Java codebase, the language and the patterns that arise from it just get in the way of solving the problem too much. It's like having to do a relatively easy job but only being allowed to use one hand, it becomes frustrating that you can't use both hands when you see it would take 1/2 effort and then I become even less motivated to work and it's a bad spiral :)

yodsanklai 5y ago

Agree 100%. I worked in Haskell project too, which overall was fun but it came with many drawbacks. > Software developers who only look for jobs always in That One Language freak me out. Indeed, I understand personal preferences, but it's hard to work with people who are religious about languages.

porcoda 5y ago

Same. Left it for job that doesn’t involve Haskell and far happier. Turns out picking jobs based on technology misses other important factors like what the technology is used for and how a workplace treats its people. Now I use technology I’d rather not, but in a super positive environment, and I’m happier than I ever was before.

ParetoOptimal 5y ago
> Now I use technology I’d rather not, but in a super positive environment, and I’m happier than I ever was before. I tried that, but knowing the issue your whole team faces or that is putting you in a crunch would have or likely been avoided with a better language was too grating for me.

tootie 5y ago

Yeah, I recently took a job with a language I don't really know and don't really like. I'm doing it because it's for a beneficial and positive product that I'm happy to improve for customers.

blablabla123 5y ago

Something similar happened to me. I worked at a job where someone proposed using a purely functional React framework. Ironically I ended up implementing most code and everyone else left eventually so I worked on it alone. People underestimate how non-standard that stuff is. Nowadays I rather avoid using a Functional programming language although I've seen also other companies using or considering pure FP but it's usually a one man army...

ParetoOptimal 5y ago

I went from Go to Haskell so I could sleep at night. map[string]interface{}, pervasive null, and lack of sum types kept pager duty ringing.