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I wonder why ADHD gets singled out so much. If I look at the suggestions that would help people with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help lots of people

I wonder why ADHD gets singled out so much. If I look at the suggestions that would help people with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help lots of people. Eg. not being reprimanded for being late when it has no consequences would help everyone. Good calendar software also helps everyone. There are lots of people who are struggling with the demands of the workplace -- in fact, I'm not sure I know anyone who doesn't struggle with something. I wonder why employers need a "Neurodiversity program" to make their workplaces less toxic. Maybe I'm missing something, but are there any specific affordances for Neurodiverse people that wouldn't also help everyone else?

novok 5y ago
ADHD people: - loose track of things more than the typical person - get distracted by new things more than the average person - have significantly higher openness to experience - tend to forget more things - are more impulsive So it's basically having an extra management structure or labor that is willing to put in extra time to mitigate the issue that come up with this, and to harness the benefits of them too.
- Ancapistani 5y ago
  > an extra management structure Not necessarily - it could be as simple as a change to the existing structure that benefits everyone to some degree (or at least doesn’t harm others).
  - novok 5y ago
    If the change of the management structure requires more active hours of management labor, for everyone or for people with ADHD, it's still more total work and labor which costs more money and is limited by hiring constraints.
    - Ancapistani 5y ago
      I agree with you, but only if the additional burden on management is not offset by increased productivity of every employee. I don’t know to what degree - or if - that would be the case, but I strongly suspect it would be.
krono 5y ago
ADHD brains are physically incapable of doing these things without assistance on a neurological/biochemical level. It's not much different to elevators being pretty convenient for everyone, but an absolute necessity to the wheelchair-bound. Edit: better fitting analogy.
- vkk8 5y ago
  ADHD isn't a discrete trait, it simply means that "you are in the lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate". Even people whose concentration skills are close to the mean of the population can feel like they "have ADHD" and be diagnosed with one if they eg. work a job that requires more than average amounts of concentration which they don't have. For a good layman's discussion on this, see: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo... (for people who are not familiar with SSC, the writer is a psychiatrist by profession so he should know this stuff).
  - alasdair_ 5y ago
    > ADHD isn't a discrete trait, it simply means that "you are in the lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate". This is an oversimplification to the point of being misleading. Scott links to several sources to support his claims and most of them are quite clear that ADHD is a whole bunch of symptoms, a lack of concentration being just one of them. For example: “DSM-IV field trials used a C-GAS score of ≤60 (which implies impairment requiring specific treatment) and determined that five ADHD symptoms were required to be present to reach this cut-off. To avoid false positives the number was increased to six or more symptoms of inattention or hyperactivity/impulsivity.‘ As an example, some people with ADHD have symptoms where their biggest detrimental issue is hyperfocus - their problem is literally that they concentrate too much rather than too little. Simplifying the condition as “ lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate" discounts these people, as it does the people whose principal problem is hyperactivity or other aspects.
    - wnkrshm 5y ago
ekanes 5y ago
You’re right, but this is always the way. Accommodating people with differing needs/sensitivities usually helps everyone. non-fluorescent lighting, reduced noise, etc. The majority of people are affected by something but don’t realize it. If you fix it for more sensitive people you fix it for everyone.
tailspin2019 5y ago
> I'm not sure I know anyone who doesn't struggle with something. It's always a matter of degree. It's completely true that to be human, is to struggle. Life is a struggle. Most people get sad at times in their lives, many people get depressed too. Many people are disorganised. And very many people, more than ever, experience trouble focussing and concentrating at times. But when that struggle becomes a defining and pervasive feature of your life, to the point that it's unshakable. Perhaps it affects your relationships. Maybe makes it difficult to hold down a job... That's where you start to fall under the diagnostic criteria for a long-term "condition" as opposed to just the common condition that we all share of simply being human. And that's where workplace support of this kind may go from useful to necessary. From "makes my job easier" to "makes it possible for me to hold a job at all". I think it's important to recognise the struggle that everyone has, as part of being human, but it's important not to overlook the significant additional struggle that people with a diagnosed condition or "neurodiversity" experience on top of this.
lolinder 5y ago
> If I look at the suggestions that would help people with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help lots of people. This is why we always emphasize that accessibility is for everyone, not just people with disabilities. The primary difference is that those with formal disabilities spend a much greater percentage of their time hurt by inaccessibility. The modern workplace isn't very human-friendly, but neurotypical people can and do work around the problems, so businesses don't adjust. Focusing on ADHD gives businesses a concrete example of people they'd like to retain who truly can't be productive in the current environment, so it's more likely to trigger actual change.
karpierz 5y ago
I think this is generally true, but it's a matter of magnitude. For example, a public transit program helps everyone in the neighbourhood, but especially helps those who can't afford to drive. So when someone says "hey, we should help low-income people by building a subway", they're not saying that it'll only help low-income folks, but that it'll especially help low income folks. The point of the "neurodiversity program" is to focus on avoidable practices which heavily impact certain groups of people. Those practices might also impact other people, but not to such a debilitating extent.
JohnBooty 5y ago
You make a lot of great points. I totally agree: the things that help neurodiverse folks (whether we're talking about tangible affordances, or just a general sense of inclusion and empathy) are generally also the things that would help literally anybody. If I look at the suggestions that would help people with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help lots of people One thing to consider is that affordances that are helpful for everybody may be absolutely essential for neurodiverse folks. Think of physical differences: a wheelchair ramp can be useful for lots of people, but for some people it's a real necessity. I wonder why employers need a "Neurodiversity program" to make their workplaces less toxic. I'm not sure it's reasonable, or even humanly possible, for employers to intuitively know all the ways they might help every possible employee perform their best. So it's the kind of thing you want to formalize a bit. Because, I mean, what is a "program?" It's just a formal recognition that this is an ongoing effort, not a one-time thing.
anonymoushn 5y ago
At an exit interview with my favorite employer so far, the HR person asked "What would you change about $company?" and I asked for walls. Walls are especially great for ADHD people compared to open-plan offices in which one must debug nginx internals while listening to sales-related conversations, but the literature suggests that the benefits of walls accrue to everyone.
galoisgirl 5y ago
> Good calendar software also helps everyone. Tell a neurotypical to use a calendar, and they'll just do it. Tell someone with ADHD to use a calendar, and they'll spend 4 hours shopping for the perfect one, then forget to check it, forget to put things in it, forget to carry it with them etc. You'll say "why can't you just keep a stupid calendar" and they'll say "the calendar doesn't work". "Use a calendar" is a piece of advice that works for neurotypicals, but not for people with ADHD. Conversely, "have a fidget toy for every single conversation you have with anyone ever" will probably not help a neurotypical person much, yet that's something I'd advise to anyone with ADHD. You guys also probably don't need a physical list of things to do for fun, because you have brains good enough to remember. Ask me what I like to do in my spare time and I'll be like "hmmmm what even is time?". I find Nir Eyal has tons of great advice that benefits both camps.
- throwaway6532 5y ago
  Yes. In my case I only learned to use a calendar at the ripe old age of 33 and even then I can now only sometimes remember to use it.

novok 5y ago

ADHD people: - loose track of things more than the typical person - get distracted by new things more than the average person - have significantly higher openness to experience - tend to forget more things - are more impulsive So it's basically having an extra management structure or labor that is willing to put in extra time to mitigate the issue that come up with this, and to harness the benefits of them too.

Ancapistani 5y ago
> an extra management structure Not necessarily - it could be as simple as a change to the existing structure that benefits everyone to some degree (or at least doesn’t harm others).
- novok 5y ago
  If the change of the management structure requires more active hours of management labor, for everyone or for people with ADHD, it's still more total work and labor which costs more money and is limited by hiring constraints.
  - Ancapistani 5y ago
    I agree with you, but only if the additional burden on management is not offset by increased productivity of every employee. I don’t know to what degree - or if - that would be the case, but I strongly suspect it would be.

krono 5y ago

ADHD brains are physically incapable of doing these things without assistance on a neurological/biochemical level. It's not much different to elevators being pretty convenient for everyone, but an absolute necessity to the wheelchair-bound. Edit: better fitting analogy.

vkk8 5y ago
ADHD isn't a discrete trait, it simply means that "you are in the lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate". Even people whose concentration skills are close to the mean of the population can feel like they "have ADHD" and be diagnosed with one if they eg. work a job that requires more than average amounts of concentration which they don't have. For a good layman's discussion on this, see: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo... (for people who are not familiar with SSC, the writer is a psychiatrist by profession so he should know this stuff).
- alasdair_ 5y ago
  > ADHD isn't a discrete trait, it simply means that "you are in the lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate". This is an oversimplification to the point of being misleading. Scott links to several sources to support his claims and most of them are quite clear that ADHD is a whole bunch of symptoms, a lack of concentration being just one of them. For example: “DSM-IV field trials used a C-GAS score of ≤60 (which implies impairment requiring specific treatment) and determined that five ADHD symptoms were required to be present to reach this cut-off. To avoid false positives the number was increased to six or more symptoms of inattention or hyperactivity/impulsivity.‘ As an example, some people with ADHD have symptoms where their biggest detrimental issue is hyperfocus - their problem is literally that they concentrate too much rather than too little. Simplifying the condition as “ lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate" discounts these people, as it does the people whose principal problem is hyperactivity or other aspects.
  - wnkrshm 5y ago

ekanes 5y ago

You’re right, but this is always the way. Accommodating people with differing needs/sensitivities usually helps everyone. non-fluorescent lighting, reduced noise, etc. The majority of people are affected by something but don’t realize it. If you fix it for more sensitive people you fix it for everyone.

tailspin2019 5y ago

> I'm not sure I know anyone who doesn't struggle with something. It's always a matter of degree. It's completely true that to be human, is to struggle. Life is a struggle. Most people get sad at times in their lives, many people get depressed too. Many people are disorganised. And very many people, more than ever, experience trouble focussing and concentrating at times. But when that struggle becomes a defining and pervasive feature of your life, to the point that it's unshakable. Perhaps it affects your relationships. Maybe makes it difficult to hold down a job... That's where you start to fall under the diagnostic criteria for a long-term "condition" as opposed to just the common condition that we all share of simply being human. And that's where workplace support of this kind may go from useful to necessary. From "makes my job easier" to "makes it possible for me to hold a job at all". I think it's important to recognise the struggle that everyone has, as part of being human, but it's important not to overlook the significant additional struggle that people with a diagnosed condition or "neurodiversity" experience on top of this.

lolinder 5y ago

> If I look at the suggestions that would help people with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help lots of people. This is why we always emphasize that accessibility is for everyone, not just people with disabilities. The primary difference is that those with formal disabilities spend a much greater percentage of their time hurt by inaccessibility. The modern workplace isn't very human-friendly, but neurotypical people can and do work around the problems, so businesses don't adjust. Focusing on ADHD gives businesses a concrete example of people they'd like to retain who truly can't be productive in the current environment, so it's more likely to trigger actual change.

karpierz 5y ago

I think this is generally true, but it's a matter of magnitude. For example, a public transit program helps everyone in the neighbourhood, but especially helps those who can't afford to drive. So when someone says "hey, we should help low-income people by building a subway", they're not saying that it'll only help low-income folks, but that it'll especially help low income folks. The point of the "neurodiversity program" is to focus on avoidable practices which heavily impact certain groups of people. Those practices might also impact other people, but not to such a debilitating extent.

JohnBooty 5y ago

You make a lot of great points. I totally agree: the things that help neurodiverse folks (whether we're talking about tangible affordances, or just a general sense of inclusion and empathy) are generally also the things that would help literally anybody. If I look at the suggestions that would help people with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help lots of people One thing to consider is that affordances that are helpful for everybody may be absolutely essential for neurodiverse folks. Think of physical differences: a wheelchair ramp can be useful for lots of people, but for some people it's a real necessity. I wonder why employers need a "Neurodiversity program" to make their workplaces less toxic. I'm not sure it's reasonable, or even humanly possible, for employers to intuitively know all the ways they might help every possible employee perform their best. So it's the kind of thing you want to formalize a bit. Because, I mean, what is a "program?" It's just a formal recognition that this is an ongoing effort, not a one-time thing.

anonymoushn 5y ago

At an exit interview with my favorite employer so far, the HR person asked "What would you change about $company?" and I asked for walls. Walls are especially great for ADHD people compared to open-plan offices in which one must debug nginx internals while listening to sales-related conversations, but the literature suggests that the benefits of walls accrue to everyone.

galoisgirl 5y ago

> Good calendar software also helps everyone. Tell a neurotypical to use a calendar, and they'll just do it. Tell someone with ADHD to use a calendar, and they'll spend 4 hours shopping for the perfect one, then forget to check it, forget to put things in it, forget to carry it with them etc. You'll say "why can't you just keep a stupid calendar" and they'll say "the calendar doesn't work". "Use a calendar" is a piece of advice that works for neurotypicals, but not for people with ADHD. Conversely, "have a fidget toy for every single conversation you have with anyone ever" will probably not help a neurotypical person much, yet that's something I'd advise to anyone with ADHD. You guys also probably don't need a physical list of things to do for fun, because you have brains good enough to remember. Ask me what I like to do in my spare time and I'll be like "hmmmm what even is time?". I find Nir Eyal has tons of great advice that benefits both camps.

throwaway6532 5y ago
Yes. In my case I only learned to use a calendar at the ripe old age of 33 and even then I can now only sometimes remember to use it.