5 ms·

Offtopic, but The Incredibles has one of my favorite movie quotes: You always say “Be true to yourself”, but you never say which part of yourself to be true to

Offtopic, but The Incredibles has one of my favorite movie quotes: You always say “Be true to yourself”, but you never say which part of yourself to be true to! … which stuck in my head because so many Disney (and other?) movies seem to be all about being “true to yourself,” and in my experience they conspicuously fail to address the fact (in my belief system) that all humans have both good and evil, selfish and selfless within (we’re born screaming, demanding others’ attention; but even in the womb we listen to and begin to love familiar people, and in many situations we sacrifice much for our loved ones and even strangers).

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cgio 5y ago
And the villain quote along the lines of “if we are all superheroes then no one is a superhero”.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  It's an accessible entrance into things like entropy, or to think about subjects like eugenics (if we're remove genetic diversity there will be no racism) or wrongthink (if nobody has these bad ideas we would all live in harmony). DISCLAIMER: this is not an invitation to start debating these subjects, these are just crudely picked examples.
  - robbomacrae 5y ago
    Well.. if you post on an internet forum it kind of IS an invitation to debate. I have a crazy relative who likes to make controversial speeches and then yell "you don't have to reply!" as if it insulates him from feedback. I'm sure most are aware but your description about eugenics is a bit off. It seems like you are putting a positive slant on it or suggesting thats the goal, whether intentional or not. Eugenics is about denying a class of humans (however you classify that class) from the ability to reproduce. This is highly unethical and given our tendency to classify on race, usually associated with racist agendas (such as the Nazis). I had to look up Wrongthink but it seems to be a term the Alt-Right is introducing... possible a play on thoughtcrime and newspeak (both Orwell) to defend their controversial opinions [0]. 0: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alt-right-has-a-word-for-its-own-ideology-wrongthink-2msd66frw https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alt-right-has-a-word-for-...
    - stragies 5y ago
      I recall "Wrongthink" having been in use for decades to decry ideas you dislike, whatever the cause or position on the political spectrum. It saw a remarkable uptick in usage after the 2001 movie "minority report", at least in my perception.
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  Syndrome being the villain always kind of struck me as the film trying to defend social hierarchies in a sense. You have a hereditary caste of pretty volatile magical beings upon whom the defence of humanity depends and the person trying to remove that dependency in a way that's accessible to anyone regardless of what they're born as is the bad guy? We can debate capitalism until the cows come home but anyone being able to buy powers is still a step up from either being born into them or not. He's a total arse don't get me wrong, but baseline humanity using nothing but its wits and hard work to make 'heroes' who inherited their powers obsolete is a sentiment I don't imagine is too alien to the readers of HN.
  - echion 5y ago
    > Syndrome being the villain [is a bit of] trying to defend social hierarchies He's a villain because he's trying to replace the hereditary caste by violence, and by consuming them. The tension is there outside of him -- and Mr. Incredible is a bit of an arse to Billy at first -- but it's his means, not his ends, that are the problem.
    - easton 5y ago
      The movie brings this up by Dash making the same point when he’s in the car with his mom in the first part of the movie.
    - BoxOfRain 5y ago
      In Syndrome's defence, the displacement of feudalism wasn't always a peaceful affair either but it's a change we can all agree was necessary. Violence doesn't change its inherent nature just because one puts a respectable face on it, the hereditary category of 'hero' can only exist at all in an otherwise democratic society because of the implied threat of 'I'm going to use my magical powers to take down anyone who opposes my interests', which is unacceptable because they don't have a legitimate claim to the use of force stemming from democratic consent of the people in the way say the military of a modern Western country does. We see this at the start of the film where Mr Incredible and his friend get tangled up in a rescue operation in a burning building despite having been pretty firmly rejected by baseline humans they're attempting to help, if I remember right one of them literally gets frozen alive by Mr Incredible's friend as they escape which is rather violent. We also see it when he throws his insufferable boss through several walls in a fit of anger, which is a display of his ingrained violent nature and lack of control over his superhuman powers which presents a threat to innocent bystanders. It's might-makes-right with a veneer of heroic respectability over the top, their true nature is very different from the nature they present to the public. Either that or I'm reading way too much into a film that's mostly aimed at kids!
- bitwize 5y ago
  "When everyone is super... no one will be." The incredible (heh) thing about this is that My Hero Academia answers it. In the world of MHA, nearly everyone has a superpower, or Quirk, of some sort; but superheroes are still a distinct class of professionals who have honed their quirks through training and, in general, developed courage, self-sacrifice, and inner resolve way beyond even the average superhuman. The greatest heroes distinguish themselves by exemplifying these values the most (though having powerful awesome Quirks helps). It was the perfect thing to come along at a point of maximum capeshit saturation.
galaxyLogic 5y ago
A related question, why is voting considered "good"? Your vote is good if you vote for good people and good policies. Yes. But if a person votes for bad people and bad policies, then I don't see what's so good about it. Voting in general however I believe is good because it makes people be part of the system, and feel they are part of it. And so, if voting is good, maybe we should have more voting.
- lnxg33k1 5y ago
  Is there good or bad voting? I think democracy is about representing interests, if a number of people have an interest that is against the interest of someone else, does that make it wrong or bad? yeah I mean bad from your interest point of view, but not from a global point of view I think the woke culture is a bit flawed, because if there is something that is objectively bad, and something that is objectively good, why even have democracy at all? Let's just put there the sun king and move on?
- indigochill 5y ago
  > But if a person votes for bad people and bad policies... The entire point of voting is that you are allowed to vote for whoever is running. Of course, the notion of a "bad policy" is as old as voting itself, but the noblest democracies are those which don't judge people for voting as they see fit, or else what's the point of voting at all? Just appoint a righteous elite to do all the political appointments for you. However, just as there's been no consistently wise electorate, neither has there been a consistently wise elite class. In the end, in both cases, the best you can do politically is build a bulwark against corruption because you can't avoid it, which is why the stablest governments are the ones that make the job of the highest political seats as difficult as possible to actually do anything and put the bulk of the power in the hands of committees that have to argue about things to come to a decision. > And so, if voting is good, maybe we should have more voting. Voting on its own is not inherently good. Plenty of dictatorships operate under the guise of voting, where either candidates opposing the ruling party are entirely absent or voting for them is punishable in various ways (which is why the political polarization in the west is particularly chilling). There are plenty of "People's republics" out there that are neither republics nor representative of the people (unless, perhaps, you narrowly define "people", as the US originally did). What is arguably good (at least in the liberal western mind) is maintaining a system of political friction (checks and balances) that ensure different parts of the government are effective limiters on each other's authority to make it as difficult as possible for a tyrant to seize control. IMO Trump was a pretty solid litmus test of the resilience of the American government against tyrannical takeover. The downside of this, as we're seeing the recent competition between east and west, is that tyranny can be much more effective at getting stuff done than democracy can hope to be, at least in the short term. However, strong tyrants still die and eventually a weak tyrant takes their place and the country falls apart. The (theoretical) strength of representative government is that it outlives any one or handful of strong rulers. I say theoretical because technically ancient Egypt's history spans more years than the entirety of human history after Christ (so far), but as can be seen in their history, they had plenty of royal family squabbles and foreign invasions in that time. How they retained national cohesion through it all would be an interesting study.
Tade0 5y ago
> we’re born screaming, demanding others’ attention; I wouldn't say "demanding". During the first weeks you actually have to wake up the newborn for feeding, otherwise you're running the risk of malnourishment. They're so utterly helpless, confused and tired that they can fall asleep even when hungry.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  > They're so utterly helpless, confused and tired that they can fall asleep even when hungry. I never grew out of that, lol
- telesilla 5y ago
  Oh boy, not all babies..
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
It's "just be yourself" all over again. What if my unmasked self is an aloof prick? It's just stupid. "Just be yourself... no not like that... wait not like that!"
- phasersout 5y ago
  That's what I always say... Be yourself? I'm terrible and I get nothing done! I spent my whole life trying NOT to be myself...
  - brimble 5y ago
    In my mind In a future five years from now I'm a hundred and twenty pounds And I never get hung over Because I will be the picture of discipline Never minding what state I'm in And I will be someone I admire And it's funny how I imagined That I would be that person now But it does not seem to have happened Maybe I've just forgotten how to see That I am not exactly the person that I thought I'd be [...] And in my mind When I'm old I am beautiful Planting tulips and vegetables Which I will mindfully watch over Not like me now I'm so busy with everything That I don't look at anything But I'm sure I'll look when I am older And it's funny how I imagined That I could be that person now But that's not what I want But that's what I wanted And I'd be giving up somehow How strange to see That I don't wanna be the person that I want to be --- Amanda Palmer, "In My Mind"
yanmaani 5y ago
C.S. Lewis: > The most dangerous thing you can do is to take any one impulse of your own nature and set it up as the thing you ought to follow at all costs. There is not one of them which will not make us into devils if we set it up as an absolute guide. You might think love of humanity in general was safe, but it is not. If you leave out justice you will find yourself breaking agreements and faking evidence in trials "for the sake of humanity," and become in the end a cruel and treacherous man.
hprotagonist 5y ago
Thoroughly worldly people never understand even the world; they rely altogether on a few cynical maxims which are not true. Once I remember walking with a prosperous publisher, who made a remark which I had often heard before; it is, indeed, almost a motto of the modern world. Yet I had heard it once too often, and I saw suddenly that there was nothing in it. The publisher said of somebody, "That man will get on; he believes in himself." And I remember that as I lifted my head to listen, my eye caught an omnibus on which was written "Hanwell." I said to him, "Shall I tell you where the men are who believe most in themselves? For I can tell you. I know of men who believe in themselves more colossally than Napoleon or Caesar. I know where flames the fixed star of certainty and success. I can guide you to the thrones of the Super-men. The men who really believe in themselves are all in lunatic asylums." chesterton
m463 5y ago
Then there's also Lily Tomlin "I always wanted to be somebody, but now I realize I should have been more specific." - Lily Tomlin

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

cgio 5y ago

And the villain quote along the lines of “if we are all superheroes then no one is a superhero”.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
It's an accessible entrance into things like entropy, or to think about subjects like eugenics (if we're remove genetic diversity there will be no racism) or wrongthink (if nobody has these bad ideas we would all live in harmony). DISCLAIMER: this is not an invitation to start debating these subjects, these are just crudely picked examples.
- robbomacrae 5y ago
  Well.. if you post on an internet forum it kind of IS an invitation to debate. I have a crazy relative who likes to make controversial speeches and then yell "you don't have to reply!" as if it insulates him from feedback. I'm sure most are aware but your description about eugenics is a bit off. It seems like you are putting a positive slant on it or suggesting thats the goal, whether intentional or not. Eugenics is about denying a class of humans (however you classify that class) from the ability to reproduce. This is highly unethical and given our tendency to classify on race, usually associated with racist agendas (such as the Nazis). I had to look up Wrongthink but it seems to be a term the Alt-Right is introducing... possible a play on thoughtcrime and newspeak (both Orwell) to defend their controversial opinions [0]. 0: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alt-right-has-a-word-for-its-own-ideology-wrongthink-2msd66frw https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alt-right-has-a-word-for-...
  - stragies 5y ago
    I recall "Wrongthink" having been in use for decades to decry ideas you dislike, whatever the cause or position on the political spectrum. It saw a remarkable uptick in usage after the 2001 movie "minority report", at least in my perception.
BoxOfRain 5y ago
Syndrome being the villain always kind of struck me as the film trying to defend social hierarchies in a sense. You have a hereditary caste of pretty volatile magical beings upon whom the defence of humanity depends and the person trying to remove that dependency in a way that's accessible to anyone regardless of what they're born as is the bad guy? We can debate capitalism until the cows come home but anyone being able to buy powers is still a step up from either being born into them or not. He's a total arse don't get me wrong, but baseline humanity using nothing but its wits and hard work to make 'heroes' who inherited their powers obsolete is a sentiment I don't imagine is too alien to the readers of HN.
- echion 5y ago
  > Syndrome being the villain [is a bit of] trying to defend social hierarchies He's a villain because he's trying to replace the hereditary caste by violence, and by consuming them. The tension is there outside of him -- and Mr. Incredible is a bit of an arse to Billy at first -- but it's his means, not his ends, that are the problem.
  - easton 5y ago
    The movie brings this up by Dash making the same point when he’s in the car with his mom in the first part of the movie.
  - BoxOfRain 5y ago
    In Syndrome's defence, the displacement of feudalism wasn't always a peaceful affair either but it's a change we can all agree was necessary. Violence doesn't change its inherent nature just because one puts a respectable face on it, the hereditary category of 'hero' can only exist at all in an otherwise democratic society because of the implied threat of 'I'm going to use my magical powers to take down anyone who opposes my interests', which is unacceptable because they don't have a legitimate claim to the use of force stemming from democratic consent of the people in the way say the military of a modern Western country does. We see this at the start of the film where Mr Incredible and his friend get tangled up in a rescue operation in a burning building despite having been pretty firmly rejected by baseline humans they're attempting to help, if I remember right one of them literally gets frozen alive by Mr Incredible's friend as they escape which is rather violent. We also see it when he throws his insufferable boss through several walls in a fit of anger, which is a display of his ingrained violent nature and lack of control over his superhuman powers which presents a threat to innocent bystanders. It's might-makes-right with a veneer of heroic respectability over the top, their true nature is very different from the nature they present to the public. Either that or I'm reading way too much into a film that's mostly aimed at kids!
bitwize 5y ago
"When everyone is super... no one will be." The incredible (heh) thing about this is that My Hero Academia answers it. In the world of MHA, nearly everyone has a superpower, or Quirk, of some sort; but superheroes are still a distinct class of professionals who have honed their quirks through training and, in general, developed courage, self-sacrifice, and inner resolve way beyond even the average superhuman. The greatest heroes distinguish themselves by exemplifying these values the most (though having powerful awesome Quirks helps). It was the perfect thing to come along at a point of maximum capeshit saturation.

galaxyLogic 5y ago

A related question, why is voting considered "good"? Your vote is good if you vote for good people and good policies. Yes. But if a person votes for bad people and bad policies, then I don't see what's so good about it. Voting in general however I believe is good because it makes people be part of the system, and feel they are part of it. And so, if voting is good, maybe we should have more voting.

lnxg33k1 5y ago
Is there good or bad voting? I think democracy is about representing interests, if a number of people have an interest that is against the interest of someone else, does that make it wrong or bad? yeah I mean bad from your interest point of view, but not from a global point of view I think the woke culture is a bit flawed, because if there is something that is objectively bad, and something that is objectively good, why even have democracy at all? Let's just put there the sun king and move on?
indigochill 5y ago
> But if a person votes for bad people and bad policies... The entire point of voting is that you are allowed to vote for whoever is running. Of course, the notion of a "bad policy" is as old as voting itself, but the noblest democracies are those which don't judge people for voting as they see fit, or else what's the point of voting at all? Just appoint a righteous elite to do all the political appointments for you. However, just as there's been no consistently wise electorate, neither has there been a consistently wise elite class. In the end, in both cases, the best you can do politically is build a bulwark against corruption because you can't avoid it, which is why the stablest governments are the ones that make the job of the highest political seats as difficult as possible to actually do anything and put the bulk of the power in the hands of committees that have to argue about things to come to a decision. > And so, if voting is good, maybe we should have more voting. Voting on its own is not inherently good. Plenty of dictatorships operate under the guise of voting, where either candidates opposing the ruling party are entirely absent or voting for them is punishable in various ways (which is why the political polarization in the west is particularly chilling). There are plenty of "People's republics" out there that are neither republics nor representative of the people (unless, perhaps, you narrowly define "people", as the US originally did). What is arguably good (at least in the liberal western mind) is maintaining a system of political friction (checks and balances) that ensure different parts of the government are effective limiters on each other's authority to make it as difficult as possible for a tyrant to seize control. IMO Trump was a pretty solid litmus test of the resilience of the American government against tyrannical takeover. The downside of this, as we're seeing the recent competition between east and west, is that tyranny can be much more effective at getting stuff done than democracy can hope to be, at least in the short term. However, strong tyrants still die and eventually a weak tyrant takes their place and the country falls apart. The (theoretical) strength of representative government is that it outlives any one or handful of strong rulers. I say theoretical because technically ancient Egypt's history spans more years than the entirety of human history after Christ (so far), but as can be seen in their history, they had plenty of royal family squabbles and foreign invasions in that time. How they retained national cohesion through it all would be an interesting study.

Tade0 5y ago

> we’re born screaming, demanding others’ attention; I wouldn't say "demanding". During the first weeks you actually have to wake up the newborn for feeding, otherwise you're running the risk of malnourishment. They're so utterly helpless, confused and tired that they can fall asleep even when hungry.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
> They're so utterly helpless, confused and tired that they can fall asleep even when hungry. I never grew out of that, lol
telesilla 5y ago
Oh boy, not all babies..

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

It's "just be yourself" all over again. What if my unmasked self is an aloof prick? It's just stupid. "Just be yourself... no not like that... wait not like that!"

phasersout 5y ago
That's what I always say... Be yourself? I'm terrible and I get nothing done! I spent my whole life trying NOT to be myself...
- brimble 5y ago
  In my mind In a future five years from now I'm a hundred and twenty pounds And I never get hung over Because I will be the picture of discipline Never minding what state I'm in And I will be someone I admire And it's funny how I imagined That I would be that person now But it does not seem to have happened Maybe I've just forgotten how to see That I am not exactly the person that I thought I'd be [...] And in my mind When I'm old I am beautiful Planting tulips and vegetables Which I will mindfully watch over Not like me now I'm so busy with everything That I don't look at anything But I'm sure I'll look when I am older And it's funny how I imagined That I could be that person now But that's not what I want But that's what I wanted And I'd be giving up somehow How strange to see That I don't wanna be the person that I want to be --- Amanda Palmer, "In My Mind"

yanmaani 5y ago

C.S. Lewis: > The most dangerous thing you can do is to take any one impulse of your own nature and set it up as the thing you ought to follow at all costs. There is not one of them which will not make us into devils if we set it up as an absolute guide. You might think love of humanity in general was safe, but it is not. If you leave out justice you will find yourself breaking agreements and faking evidence in trials "for the sake of humanity," and become in the end a cruel and treacherous man.

hprotagonist 5y ago

Thoroughly worldly people never understand even the world; they rely altogether on a few cynical maxims which are not true. Once I remember walking with a prosperous publisher, who made a remark which I had often heard before; it is, indeed, almost a motto of the modern world. Yet I had heard it once too often, and I saw suddenly that there was nothing in it. The publisher said of somebody, "That man will get on; he believes in himself." And I remember that as I lifted my head to listen, my eye caught an omnibus on which was written "Hanwell." I said to him, "Shall I tell you where the men are who believe most in themselves? For I can tell you. I know of men who believe in themselves more colossally than Napoleon or Caesar. I know where flames the fixed star of certainty and success. I can guide you to the thrones of the Super-men. The men who really believe in themselves are all in lunatic asylums." chesterton

m463 5y ago

Then there's also Lily Tomlin "I always wanted to be somebody, but now I realize I should have been more specific." - Lily Tomlin