4 ms·

I mean… good? Same with floppy disks. Removing a whole, often needless, level of abstraction from users of all kinds is a great thing.

by orf 5y ago

salawat 5y ago
I'd rather that level of abstraction came off the top. Not the bottom tbqh. Not understanding filesystems is one of the biggest handicaps in terms of realizing that all a computer is is an address space management machine. Completely undermines the desktop metaphor, and leads to crap like Android, where you're not even looked at as the primary owner/operator of your own handset.
armchairhacker 5y ago
i also doubt kids don’t “get” folders, since basically any major file storage (desktop OS, mobile OS, cloud storage) has them in some form. They’re just not using them.
- midasuni 5y ago
  I know directories just fine, I’ve used them for 30 years, but 90% of the time I find files using “locate” rather than a hierarchal structure
Barrin92 5y ago
not being able to understand the concept of a folder structure or a file hierarchy goes way beyond some technical implementation detail. That's a fundamental concept that you find outside of digital systems (duh, given the folder metaphor) This isn't some legacy artifact, it's more like losing the ability to read an actual map or orient yourself because your navigation system tells you where to go next. Which is something that I've noticed increasingly as well with many people.
- midasuni 5y ago
  You call it a folder, not a directory, seems you aren’t immune from the rot. Does anyone know why directories were renamed around the win95 time?
  - brewdad 5y ago
    Because a folder makes more sense in a GUI environment.
  - _abox 5y ago
    MacOS called them folders from its very start. Windows until 95 was really just a shell on top of DOS. 95 was too but it was much more of a full featured OS in its own right. I guess they just wanted to use the metaphor that made sense visually too. Since it was always represented by a folder icon. I don't remember what Windows 1-3 called them but they weren't visually represented by a folder but by a window with little icons. Which didn't make a ton of sense.
    - wtallis 5y ago
      The Windows 3.1 File Manager definitely used folder icons that were quite similar to what Windows Explorer used in future versions. The windows full of icons you remember were in Program Manager, which was replaced by the Start menu.
  - oalae5niMiel7qu 5y ago
    Apple called them "folders" because they had this "desktop metaphor" where the files were pieces of paper and the background (what we call the "desktop" today) was like a physical desk. This is also the reason GUI programs typically have a white background. It's like you're typing on a typewriter and the background is made of paper. Prior to GUIs, it was common to see black backgrounds and glowing text, because that was easier for the hardware than the opposite.
  - antifa 5y ago
    Do you have an example of a GUI that doesn't use folders to represent directories? Macs, Linux, and Windows do. That's almost 100% of the GUIs in existence.
- vlark 5y ago
  Oh, those stories go back to 2015 and beyond: https://theweek.com/articles/464674/8-drivers-who-blindly-followed-gps-into-disaster https://theweek.com/articles/464674/8-drivers-who-blindly-fo...
- newsbinator 5y ago
  Do kids not understand the concept of a filing system? I think they do understand it. They get that you can have multiple labeled filing cabinets, each with multiple labeled folders, each with multiple papers. They can abstract that to digital files if they have to, probably within seconds (say if a game mechanic required them to understand this). But do they need to?
  - spacexsucks 5y ago
    Yes. The file is the concept about owning your data and not relying on some algorithm controlled by a 3rd party controlling access to it.
_abox 5y ago
Floppies had directories. Except in the very earliest MS-DOS versions 1.x which didn't have subdirectories. They were added in 2.0 I know people often didn't use directories on floppies but the complexity was replaced by another one: which floppy contained the file you were looking for. Most people had big boxes full of hundreds of them.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

I mean… good? Same with floppy disks. Removing a whole, often needless, level of abstraction from users of all kinds is a great thing.

by orf 5y ago

I mean… good? Same with floppy disks. Removing a whole, often needless, level of abstraction from users of all kinds is a great thing.

salawat 5y ago

I'd rather that level of abstraction came off the top. Not the bottom tbqh. Not understanding filesystems is one of the biggest handicaps in terms of realizing that all a computer is is an address space management machine. Completely undermines the desktop metaphor, and leads to crap like Android, where you're not even looked at as the primary owner/operator of your own handset.

armchairhacker 5y ago

i also doubt kids don’t “get” folders, since basically any major file storage (desktop OS, mobile OS, cloud storage) has them in some form. They’re just not using them.

midasuni 5y ago
I know directories just fine, I’ve used them for 30 years, but 90% of the time I find files using “locate” rather than a hierarchal structure

Barrin92 5y ago

not being able to understand the concept of a folder structure or a file hierarchy goes way beyond some technical implementation detail. That's a fundamental concept that you find outside of digital systems (duh, given the folder metaphor) This isn't some legacy artifact, it's more like losing the ability to read an actual map or orient yourself because your navigation system tells you where to go next. Which is something that I've noticed increasingly as well with many people.

midasuni 5y ago
You call it a folder, not a directory, seems you aren’t immune from the rot. Does anyone know why directories were renamed around the win95 time?
- brewdad 5y ago
  Because a folder makes more sense in a GUI environment.
- _abox 5y ago
  MacOS called them folders from its very start. Windows until 95 was really just a shell on top of DOS. 95 was too but it was much more of a full featured OS in its own right. I guess they just wanted to use the metaphor that made sense visually too. Since it was always represented by a folder icon. I don't remember what Windows 1-3 called them but they weren't visually represented by a folder but by a window with little icons. Which didn't make a ton of sense.
  - wtallis 5y ago
    The Windows 3.1 File Manager definitely used folder icons that were quite similar to what Windows Explorer used in future versions. The windows full of icons you remember were in Program Manager, which was replaced by the Start menu.
- oalae5niMiel7qu 5y ago
  Apple called them "folders" because they had this "desktop metaphor" where the files were pieces of paper and the background (what we call the "desktop" today) was like a physical desk. This is also the reason GUI programs typically have a white background. It's like you're typing on a typewriter and the background is made of paper. Prior to GUIs, it was common to see black backgrounds and glowing text, because that was easier for the hardware than the opposite.
- antifa 5y ago
  Do you have an example of a GUI that doesn't use folders to represent directories? Macs, Linux, and Windows do. That's almost 100% of the GUIs in existence.
vlark 5y ago
Oh, those stories go back to 2015 and beyond: https://theweek.com/articles/464674/8-drivers-who-blindly-followed-gps-into-disaster https://theweek.com/articles/464674/8-drivers-who-blindly-fo...
newsbinator 5y ago
Do kids not understand the concept of a filing system? I think they do understand it. They get that you can have multiple labeled filing cabinets, each with multiple labeled folders, each with multiple papers. They can abstract that to digital files if they have to, probably within seconds (say if a game mechanic required them to understand this). But do they need to?
- spacexsucks 5y ago
  Yes. The file is the concept about owning your data and not relying on some algorithm controlled by a 3rd party controlling access to it.

_abox 5y ago

Floppies had directories. Except in the very earliest MS-DOS versions 1.x which didn't have subdirectories. They were added in 2.0 I know people often didn't use directories on floppies but the complexity was replaced by another one: which floppy contained the file you were looking for. Most people had big boxes full of hundreds of them.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]